Mandelson seeks to ban Phoenix Four from serving as company directors in the future [Archive]

Ian

13-08-2009, 16:03

Lord Mandelson seeks to ground Phoenix Four
Wednesday 12 August 2009, 15:55

Business secretary Lord Mandelson is looking to ban ex-MG Rover directors from serving as company directors in the future following a report into the company’s closure which will be published on September 11.

The 850-page report, which took four years to compile at a cost of £16 million in taxpayer’s money, is believed to include damning details about how the manufacturer’s demise was handled.

Mandelson has arranged for Government lawyers to compile evidence against John Towers, Nick Stephenson, Peter Beale and John Edwards, the directors known as the Phoenix Four, to stop them becoming directors at any other company, despite the fact that no evidence was found to suggest wrongdoing during the closure of the business in 2005.

The Serious Fraud Office was appointed to expose any illegal activity during MG Rover’s demise, but announced earlier this week that there was no evidence to support a criminal investigation and made no further comment.

Accountancy firm Deloitte, the former auditor to MG Rover, is also expected to feature heavily in a soon-to-be published and damning report.

Although the Phoenix Four are under the spotlight, Deloitte are expected to be subject to scrutiny after a Guardian review of Rover-related accounts for years between 2000 and 2003 show it received £1.9m for its role as auditor to the carmaker and linked companies.

Among the key figures in Deloitte's relationship with Rover was mergers and acquisitions partner Maghsoud Einollahi, who retired from the UK firm last year.

SOURCE: AMOnline

dentricrio

13-08-2009, 16:28

I'd like to bad Mandelson from being in any seat of power what so ever, but we can't all get our own way.

chris.maddock

13-08-2009, 18:36

How much more of a nasty piece of work can he get?

Windy

13-08-2009, 18:41

I think the Chinese had the right idea:

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/10/11/eu_trade_commissioner_peter_mandels.php

:naughty:

xerif

13-08-2009, 18:50

MGJohn

13-08-2009, 19:13

allowing the company to trade while insolvent

Why anyone can defend these despicable greedy men is beyond me.

Far too many do that and continue to do so. Far worse, wind up a company then start up an identical one soon after sometimes in the same premises ~ with a different name.

Nothing done !
..

Man in the Car

13-08-2009, 19:56

allowing the company to trade while insolvent

Why anyone can defend these despicable greedy men is beyond me.
Frankly, from where I see it, their behaviour (even if the worst of the stories are true) is no worse than a large proportion of businessmen, who in the main are greedy, arrogant and inept. That is why the country is in its present bankrupt state.

I'm sorry, but it is just vindictivness on the part of the Government/Mandelson. The administrators, auditors, right through to the SFO have found no evidence of wrongdoing, and no valid reason for a prosecution, yet still Mandelson persists.

If the directors of Phoenix are shown up in the report as having the shortcomings they are being accused of, then they deserve to be castigated for it. However, I strongly suspect that Mandelson/The Government are just throwing a wobbly because their cunning plan to bury the report until after an election have been scuppered by the SFO.

I also strongly suspect, that the real reason for the high profile continued persecution of Towers & Co is to deflect attention away from any damaging criticism of the Government, and in particular the then DTI, which I am sure is in the report.

Regardless of the percieved shortcomings of the P4, my memory of the public face of the Government's handling of the affair, is that it was inept at the very least.

I am sure we all look forward to its publication so that we can put most of the pure speculation to bed once and for all.

chris.maddock

13-08-2009, 20:07

I'm sorry, but it is just vindictivness on the part of the Government/Mandelson. The administrators, auditors, right through to the SFO have found no evidence of wrongdoing, and no valid reason for a prosecution, yet still Mandelson persists.

If the directors of Phoenix are shown up in the report as having the shortcomings they are being accused of, then they deserve to be castigated for it.

True - but, if there was anything amiss, then action should have been taken four years ago - as should any SFO investigation have been - not left this late. If there was anything seriouly enough amiss to justify action now, then it would have been known about early in the investigation.

This all strikes me as the actions of a slimy, twice-disgraced politician wriggling on the hook to defend his cronies. After all, he can't be voted out so he can do pretty well much as he likes.

Cap'n ZS

13-08-2009, 20:13

Thank god this isn't 200 years ago, mandleson would now be our despot leader having us tortured and killed by the tens of thousands. That man is nothing short of pure evil.

Frank

13-08-2009, 20:40

it the goverment had done what others had done and supported our own people we would still have rover cars being made,

MGJohn

13-08-2009, 20:46

Frankly, from where I see it, their behaviour (even if the worst of the stories are true) is no worse than a large proportion of businessmen, who in the main are greedy, arrogant and inept. That is why the country is in its present bankrupt state.

Spot on ~ totally agree!

Only in the UK ~ where genuine and well earned success is a no-no, asset stripping, incompetence and failure are highly rewarded not to mention the selling off of the nation's family silver to cover hidden shortfalls. Add a touch of corruption which always seems to go hand in hand with priviledge at all levels and you have the recipe for a Nation's continued decline ~ from just above every aspect.

It did not used to be like that ~ but, that seems a very long time ago now in the former green and pleasant.

Yes, only in the UK.

..................

Swaledale Ram

13-08-2009, 22:03

Just been reading the Economist. There is an article about Philippe Varin who runs Peugeot Citroen. Their recent results have been quite good and the company's balance sheet has been strengthened by a loan of 3 billion Euros from the French Government. This was given in exchange for a committment to keep French factories open.

Pity the UK government was not so supportive of MG Rover a few years ago. I'm sure the last thing on the minds of the French when they gave the loan was what Brussels would think. They just supported the people who elected them.

streetrover

13-08-2009, 22:57

Some shoddy journalism allows the attack dogs to go lose. Mandy can't ban himself but refer the matter to the Courts who have the power to ban

See
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073791043

The most relevant one is

allowing the company to trade while insolvent

Why anyone can defend these despicable greedy men is beyond me.

I know, let's have an investigation followed by a report to see if they've done anything wrong!

Potential causes of disqualification include:

allowing the company to trade while insolvent
not keeping proper accounting records
failing to prepare and file accounts
not sending returns to Companies House
failing to send tax returns and pay tax

I'd say none of them are relevant.

The auditors decided MG Rover was solvent up until they stopped trading. So if they transgressed, it is they who should be disqualified. Funny how no one's suggesting that. MGR did become insolvent - in April 05. But the company went into administration and ceased trading.

amtcoupe

14-08-2009, 00:37

Some shoddy journalism allows the attack dogs to go lose. Mandy can't ban himself but refer the matter to the Courts who have the power to ban

See
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073791043

The most relevant one is

allowing the company to trade while insolvent

Why anyone can defend these despicable greedy men is beyond me.
The fact is that until (or rather if ) this report ever sees the light of day none of us know if the phoenix 4 were "the unnacceptable face of capitalism" or if they employed 6000 people and kept the brand alive for 5 years more than it should have had .

In the meantime do you not wonder why mandy wont let us see the report while still trying to villify the p4 at every opportunity ?

does that not make you even slightly suspicious about his motives ?

is our unelected deputy prime minister trying to protect or unelected prime ministers arse ?

Has he realised that the "financial sector is the future for this country not manufacturing " comment at the time didnt work out that well for us in the end ?

It may turn out you will be entirely right and towers an co's greed did sink rover but until that reports out everything else is just speculation , andy

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 00:51

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 00:52

Has he realised that the "financial sector is the future for this country not manufacturing " comment at the time didnt work out that well for us in the end ?

In fairness, our illustrious leader was looking to the future when he made that statement. Unfortunately for all of us, he was looking out of his dodgy eye ;)

Regards

John

doos

14-08-2009, 09:13

Perhaps we can ban all labour and conservative MPs who have served in goverment from doing it again

outcastjack

14-08-2009, 09:17

thomasgilling

14-08-2009, 09:36

Yes, only in the UK.

You need to make that a signature!

MGJohn

14-08-2009, 09:51

You need to make that a signature!

Yes, I would do that but, I've already been reprimanded for the size of my ...

.... signature..:)

More seriously, viewed and appraised through your still 'mint' young eyes, what do you understand those words "Only in the UK" to mean ?

I would genuinely be interested to hear the views on this from an enthusiastic teenager who has an interest in Rovers.

..

AndrewPorter

14-08-2009, 11:10

xerif

14-08-2009, 11:47

This strikes me about deflecting blame.

Mandelson is determined to find a scapegoat in the P4 which, to my cynical mind, suggests a desire to hide something very critical and damaging to the government.

The P4 got a lot wrong but I do not believe for one moment they wanted the company to fail.

The p45 didn't give a damn at the end. Having filled their boots with £40 million they have the utter nerve to demand MORE money of taxpayers.

I wonder what super bonuses they would have paid themselves out of the loan they wanted. Out of taxpayers money. They should hang their heads in shame but of course they play to the attack dogs by blaming everyone but themselves for the utter mess they made of MGR.

Can anyone find one word of contrition from one of these idiots? Saint Towers in particular has never once admitted he was wrong.

stefan161

14-08-2009, 11:48

Some serious Pot-Kettle-Black here.

Isn't Mandelson the man who has been forced to resign twice from Cabinet, the second time for financial irregularities regarding a mortgage loan.

That man should not be allowed anywhere near any sort of high office, yet he went on to be made EU commisionar and now has a peerage!

AndrewPorter

14-08-2009, 12:12

How do you spot someone who doesn't like peter mandelson?

They are breathing. :bgrin2:

DillTheDog

14-08-2009, 12:13

Haven't we already established that the £40m figure was made-up by the media ?

No good slating the directors until the facts beging to emerge after 9/11.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until then.

On the other hand Fat Kev ought to be hung, drawn and quartered whatever the report says!!

AndrewPorter

14-08-2009, 12:15

On the other hand Fat Kev ought to be hung, drawn and quartered whatever the report says!!

Couldn't agree more.

soj

14-08-2009, 12:28

The p45 didn't give a damn at the end. Having filled their boots with £40 million they have the utter nerve to demand MORE money of taxpayers.

I wonder what super bonuses they would have paid themselves out of the loan they wanted. Out of taxpayers money. They should hang their heads in shame but of course they play to the attack dogs by blaming everyone but themselves for the utter mess they made of MGR.

Can anyone find one word of contrition from one of these idiots? Saint Towers in particular has never once admitted he was wrong.

The utter mess they made was in my opinion due to them being pretty well totally inept in the world of big business, having been left cash rich by BMW which they did because they had to under German law.
The fact that Mandelson and Brown are running the country kind of points to the fact that they can`t be inept or niave but with Mandelsons past and the fact that it is widely publicised that Blair wanted to keep MGRover going then the point at which the blame rests is obvious but not proven and probably never will be.
I wish them all ill possible, these two parasites are in my opinion as near to cancer as it is possible to be. Hatred is a very strong word but i feel much more than dislike, maybe total contempt.

Windy

14-08-2009, 13:31

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 14:49

AndrewPorter

14-08-2009, 15:33

Because he's a lying, contriving, scheming scumbag.

Next question? ;)

Regards

John

Can't argue with that.

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 17:02

Why is Mandy suggesting that tax payers money is now in the bank accounts of the P4 while taking the credit for the Trust Fund for himself :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/v/E4DIkTg_6_s&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1

"The important issue is that where taxpayers money has been involved in bailing out a company and the directors who have the main responsibility for running the company then do so well but leading none the less to the colapse of the company that proper questions are asked, and that's what has happened."

Just exactly what taxpayer's money is he talking about? :daft: MG Rover only got £5m of taxpayers' money which they matched with £5m of their own money and there's never been any suggestion the training didn't happen.

Mandy, like many Neu Arbeit agents is simply plain nasty and increasingly people recognise this and no longer fall for his spin, deceit and downright lies. Indeed, his obsession with the P4 in the current ecoomic climate is in danger of turning them into perhaps the most unlikely of anti-heroes.

Regards

John

SteveChilds

14-08-2009, 17:23

I think MGR got £6m just after they had gone into administration to pay the wages for a couple of weeks whilst a deal was SAIC was attempted.

But I have to say two things

1) 'Dark Lord' Peter Mandleson is the embodiment of evil.
2) I'm pretty sure the P4 did not walk away with £40m
3) The report to be released on Sept 11th will have a lot of information removed, information that I'm sure will be critical of the government
4) This was more than 2 things.
5) What ever happened to clear and transparent government. Its turning into a version of the Chinese government where anything critical gets censored.

Grr! Just ranted away to myself about this for the past 10 mins.

AndrewPorter

14-08-2009, 17:38

Just watch Yes Minister or Yes Prime Minister and you will see how comedy has become reality.

A smarmy, unelected, moral vacuum running the country.

Almost makes you like Gordon Brown.

Windy

14-08-2009, 17:40

I think MGR got £6m just after they had gone into administration...
You cant blame the P4 for taking that - they were not in control at that point, it was the administators that were in charge!

Ex Tester

14-08-2009, 18:07

Mandelson will have a job on his hands as i do believe John Towers is still the Chairman of Concentric Engineering, which he also was at the same time as he was part of the Phoenix four.

I am looking forward to getting a copy of the report, which i presume we will as ex employees, just to see whats in it !

As far as the P4 are concerned, you should remember they are/were business men and while i have no time for Fat Kev, Peter Beale and Stephenson, JT wore his MGR heart on his sleeve as far as i am conerned, they were in the company to make money for themselves and pay the workforce, they have doine nothing legally wrong in taking however much they did from the company, on a moral stand point there is a big debate to be had !

thomasgilling

14-08-2009, 19:06

Yes, I would do that but, I've already been reprimanded for the size of my ...

.... signature..:)

More seriously, viewed and appraised through your still 'mint' young eyes, what do you understand those words "Only in the UK" to mean ?

I would genuinely be interested to hear the views on this from an enthusiastic teenager who has an interest in Rovers.

..

It can have two meaning's. One where "Only in the UK" means that it only is in this country right now or it mean's that it is only possible in this country.

For an example of my first meaning let's say that the British car industry goes back to normal and then Germany start's to lose it's brands and it's car industry start's to collapse along with it's manufacturing then it would be "Only in Germany" because no other country is experiencing the problem. And my second meaning is that due to multiple thing's the Goverment, the War and just the lack of confidence for home grown car brands our car industry can be the only one to fail in the world.

I like to think your talking about the first meaning, but we all know it's the second meaning that your talking about.

thomasgilling

14-08-2009, 19:13

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 20:46

streetrover

14-08-2009, 20:50

The p45 didn't give a damn at the end. Having filled their boots with £40 million they have the utter nerve to demand MORE money of taxpayers.

I wonder what super bonuses they would have paid themselves out of the loan they wanted. Out of taxpayers money. They should hang their heads in shame but of course they play to the attack dogs by blaming everyone but themselves for the utter mess they made of MGR.

Can anyone find one word of contrition from one of these idiots? Saint Towers in particular has never once admitted he was wrong.

We've had this conversation from with that bloke from Calgary. Having no remorse isn't doubling up on the crime if the crime wasn't committed.

A lot of speculation and some inaccurate comment. The (alleged) £40 million is not just for 4 people , covers pensions and there's a trust fund which is being held until all inquiries, investigations and reports are finished - so you can blame the government for holding that up too. nor is there any call for claiming bonuses would be paid, especially out of a loan.

Yet all you can do is suggest the P4 were no good in the end based on speculation. By contrast, it seems the government were no good from at least 2004 until today, and that's far more in evidence.

JohnSwitzer

14-08-2009, 21:03

Ex Tester

15-08-2009, 07:34

I thought that Concentric Engineering had been sold to Haldex? Anyhow, going off on something of a tangent here... but is Concentric Engineering related in anyway to AMAL Concentric?

Regards

John

I have no idea John, you may well be right, i dont follow the industry that well so JT may not be in charge now.

Bbroomlea

15-08-2009, 08:53

The fact that Mandelson and Brown are running the country kind of points to the fact that they can`t be inept or niave

I wouldn't be so sure! They are both un-elected, out of touch idiots as far as I can tell.

xerif

15-08-2009, 11:43

The real irony in all of this of course is, the more that that the Prince of Darkness, The Idiot and the Agents of Neu Arbeit lambast and persecure the P4, the more the public warm to them. On the basis of 'mine enemy's enemy is my friend' alone, then the P4 probably can't quite believe their luck right now.

Regards

John

So the public are going to warm to the greedy selfish p45?

John you posted on Friday nite. I was out at a restaurant. I suggest you get out more and realise there is no support for these incompetents. The public despise people who asset strip companies. They are down there with the bankers.

ModernGentleman

15-08-2009, 12:38

Towers is hardly an ASSET STRIPPER. He's a car enthusiast, and he did a fine job of running The Firm, under the circumstances. People often forget he was running the show during the BAe/Honda days, and did a fine job then also.

Howard

15-08-2009, 13:03

The public despise people who asset strip companies. Any asset stripping done by the P4 is peanuts compared to that perpetrated by the previous owners. I don't see the public despising BMW very much judging by the number of the things cluttering up the roads round here...

Phil

15-08-2009, 15:52

Any asset stripping done by the P4 is peanuts compared to that perpetrated by the previous owners. I don't see the public despising BMW very much judging by the number of the things cluttering up the roads round here...

Not to mention our 75/ZT's which are "cluttering" up the roads as you put it. Don't forget one of the best mg/rover car for 30 odd years wouldn't have been possible without thier input.

thomasgilling

15-08-2009, 16:52

JohnSwitzer

15-08-2009, 21:32

So the public are going to warm to the greedy selfish p45?

John you posted on Friday nite. I was out at a restaurant. I suggest you get out more and realise there is no support for these incompetents. The public despise people who asset strip companies. They are down there with the bankers.

Get out more? After being in Troon on Tuesday; Edinburgh, Leeds, York, Sheffield and Barnsley on Wednesday; Uddingston, Bellshill, Glasgow and Stranraer on Thursday; and Dublin on Friday… it was something of a relief to spend a night at home on Friday!

Surely to goodness, I’m allowed one night at home? ;)

But that's by the by. Having been out for dinner and lunch with various people during the week, however disliked the P4 may or may not be, the people I met during the week don't so much dislike this wretched Government as thoroughly despise them.

Incidentally, what assets exactly did the P4 strip from the company? To my mind, practically everything they bought (and more) was handed back to PWC.

Regards

John

JohnSwitzer

15-08-2009, 22:08

Not to mention our 75/ZT's which are "cluttering" up the roads as you put it. Don't forget one of the best mg/rover car for 30 odd years wouldn't have been possible without thier input.

Well, to put things into context - this is what BMW bought:

Mini
Metro 3 door
Metro 5 door
Metro Convertible
Maestro
Montego 4 door
Montego Countryman
200 3 door
200 5 door
200 Convertible
200 Tomcat
400 4 door
400 Tourer
600
800 Saloon
800 Fastback
RV8

This is what they left behind:

25 3 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
24 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
45 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
45 Saloon - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
75
TF - developed under the auspices of BAe

Regards

John

2bellys

16-08-2009, 03:08

Well, to put things into context - this is what BMW bought:

Mini
Metro 3 door
Metro 5 door
Metro Convertible
Maestro
Montego 4 door
Montego Countryman
200 3 door
200 5 door
200 Convertible
200 Tomcat
400 4 door
400 Tourer
600
800 Saloon
800 Fastback
RV8

This is what they left behind:

25 3 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
24 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
45 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
45 Saloon - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
75
TF - developed under the auspices of BAe

Regards

John

i couldnt agree more john

the fact that the p4 kept MGR alive and viable for so long still amazes me when you consider the hoops the government when making them jump through.

the rot set in in the BMW days due to there own ineptitude as the the ruling family had no clear vision for BMW let alone MGR at the time apart from to gain interlectall rights to the range rover of course as they were squableing amongst themselves.

BMW also tried to pull p4's pants down on the true size and value of the old stock of cars hence why the p4 gained powertrain LTD

lets not forget the BMW mini's developement was left on MGR's balance sheet after BMW slithered back home

ex-rover

16-08-2009, 13:32

Well, to put things into context - this is what BMW bought:

Mini
Metro 3 door
Metro 5 door
Metro Convertible
Maestro
Montego 4 door
Montego Countryman
200 3 door
200 5 door
200 Convertible
200 Tomcat
400 4 door
400 Tourer
600
800 Saloon
800 Fastback
RV8

This is what they left behind:

25 3 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
24 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe
45 5 door - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
45 Saloon - developed under the auspices of BAe / Honda
75
TF - developed under the auspices of BAe

Regards

John

Completely right. Under BMW Longbridge did not see one new car just a couple of half hearted face lifts. Towers and co made mistakes and it's easy to critisice them but they kept the place open for 5 years and it gave everyone there who was interested the opportunity to gain new skills during that time to prepare themselves for the day when it finally closed.

So I for one hold very little grudge against the phoenix 4 if they had'nt taken over the place MG would just be a BMW owned brand like triumph appearing on photo shopped pictures on autoexpress claiming to be on the verge of a comeback. Instead we have new MG's coming out over the next few years with the very strong possibility they will be built at Longbridge and IMHO Towers must take a little bit of credit for that.

Windy

18-08-2009, 19:59

Because he's a lying, contriving, scheming scumbag.

Next question? ;)

Regards

John
OK: Why is JLR unhappy with Mandy :confused:

The Tata insider told the Birmingham Post: “There were still big discussions taking place over exactly what the Government wanted in terms of influencing the business agenda. The Government had dropped some of the more severe conditions such as being able to appoint JLR’s Chairman, appoint another member of the Executive Committee, and having a veto in relation to investment and jobs but unresolved matters still existed. The gap between the parties had narrowed but had not closed.”
Tata decided that if the banks were now prepared to give guarantees, then what was the point of dealing with the Government? They might as well just go direct.” They ”could not believe how they had been treated by Lord Mandelson, it was a no-brainer to go private.” A Tata insider
The source said the Government had also been demanding that any guarantees should be subject to counter-guarantees from major Indian banks such as the State Bank of India, the country’s largest. “Tata decided that if the banks were now prepared to give guarantees, then what was the point of dealing with the Government? They might as well just go direct.”

It had, after all, been the freezing of credit in the international financial markets which had forced Tata to ask for British government help in the first place. So, given that they “could not believe how they had been treated by Lord Mandelson, it was a no-brainer to go private”, said the source.

Tata remains furious at the Government’s leaking of data over the talks...

Source: tata-slams-lord-mandelson-as-jlr-finance-talks-fall-through (http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/automotive-business/2009/08/17/tata-slams-lord-mandelson-as-jlr-finance-talks-fall-through-65233-24455431/)

JohnSwitzer

18-08-2009, 20:41

OK: Why is JLR unhappy with Mandy :confused:

Because he's a lying, contriving, scheming scumbag.

Next question? ;)

Regards

John

streetrover

19-08-2009, 21:52

ignatius59

23-08-2009, 00:27

Ian

23-08-2009, 02:07

As for Mandy he's one of the few politicians prepared to resign when things go wrong.

When he has had his back to the wall, I think you'll find.

After being publicly disgraced and found to have failed to disclose information he should have, I personally think it is appalling that he has been allowed to get back into office. It's like putting a rapist in charge of a women's refuge!

chris.maddock

23-08-2009, 05:48

When he has had his back to the wall, I think you'll find.

After being publicly disgraced and found to have failed to disclose information he should have, I personally think it is appalling that he has been allowed to get back into office.

Especially one where the voters have no opportunity at all to decide whether or not he remains in office come election time :-(

SteveChilds

23-08-2009, 07:58

What a load of nonsense has been spoken, mainly by a load of little Englanders. Rover went bust because of a poor line of products. Handing over large amounts of money to prop it up was a crazy idea amd never works in the long run. As for Mandy he's one of the few politicians prepared to resign when things go wrong. He's completely correct about where our future lies and it isn't competing against the Chinese in manufacturing.
Sorry, but the nonsense this time was spoken by you. Yes the range of cars was aging, but the company wasn't after a handout, it was after a bridging loan for the joint venture with SAIC, which would have been paid back, unlike the billion or so pumped into Northern Rock, which I doubt we'll ever see back.

As for sticking up for the dark lord... lol, I think you'll find most politicians resign when things go wrong, before they get pushed.

Man in the Car

23-08-2009, 10:02

What a load of nonsense has been spoken, mainly by a load of little Englanders. Rover went bust because of a poor line of products. Handing over large amounts of money to prop it up was a crazy idea amd never works in the long run. As for Mandy he's one of the few politicians prepared to resign when things go wrong. He's completely correct about where our future lies and it isn't competing against the Chinese in manufacturing.
Well that is certainly a lot of nonsense. Rover (for the first time in many years) had an excellent line of products during the early 90s. It was subsequent lack of investment in new designs that left them behind.
Why is it that whenever anyone British criticises a foreigner or foreign company, they get branded a 'little englander' ? It is often accompanied by sweeping statements (often well wideof the truth) and it seems to me to be used very often as a (particularly rude and insulting) sustitute for a coherent and valid argument.
As for sticking up for Mandelson - he has only ever resigned when he has forced to (although I would have to admit that in that he is only the same as most polititians nowadays).

MGJohn

23-08-2009, 20:07

Well that is certainly a lot of nonsense. Rover (for the first time in many years) had an excellent line of products during the early 90s. It was subsequent lack of investment in new designs that left them behind.
Why is it that whenever anyone British criticises a foreigner or foreign company, they get branded a 'little englander' ? It is often accompanied by sweeping statements (often well wideof the truth) and it seems to me to be used very often as a (particularly rude and insulting) sustitute for a coherent and valid argument.
As for sticking up for Mandelson - he has only ever resigned when he has forced to (although I would have to admit that in that he is only the same as most polititians nowadays).

You ask why ~ I'll tell you why although I strongly suspect you do not need telling.

Although there are still many things to admire and be genuinely proud about in the former green and pleasant, we as a nation largely now excel only at getting it wrong at many levels.

Some of the anti-brit ignorance and plain biggotry I see not only on the various web sites I visit, but in everyday conversations with so called Brits is amazing! It truly defies belief and explains much as to why the nation is in the state its currently in.

The really worrying thing is there is a total lack of evidence that things will change for the better.

Still, I blame the Government and its narrowly focussed one-eyed leader. Yeah, it's them what done it. Come the next opportunity to place my X at the next Westminster reshuffle, all will be well soonest. Yeah right sorted ~

Oink oink ~ flap flap.

Now where those BMW brochures ~ no more rubbish Brit cars for moi...

ignatius59

23-08-2009, 23:11

Well that is certainly a lot of nonsense. Rover (for the first time in many years) had an excellent line of products during the early 90s. It was subsequent lack of investment in new designs that left them behind.

The fact that the demand for Rover cars overseas was minimal is indicative of the lack of appeal that they had. The punters weren't stupid they knew that they could get a better quality product elsewhere and at a better price!

MGJohn

23-08-2009, 23:37

The fact that the demand for Rover cars overseas was minimal is indicative of the lack of appeal that they had. The punters weren't stupid they knew that they could get a better quality product elsewhere and at a better price!

Is that a fact !

It has been my pleasure to help a number of both MG and Rover owners source parts on all five continents. The Rover 600s in all their forms are especially appreciated, the two Rover engined cars the Diesel and the 620ti in particular. Despite what you say, they were and are still held in higher regard overseas than you would have us believe. If that was not enough, well kept examples in those countries can and do change hands for rather more than the same car would do here in the UK, sometimes even five of six times more!

That further undermines what you say.

The reason Rovers and MGs are no longer made in the UK are far, far more complex than those you have outlined.

Finally, again contrary to what you say, many punters ARE stupid when it comes to car choice. There's more than one born every .... particularly in the land of also rans.

P.S. I have one or two Rover owning good friends in the Republic of Ireland. They have told me of the widespread anti-Rover mindset on that other side of the Irish Sea. This invariably shows itself when they want some work done on their cars and appraoch those 'in the trade'. They are puzzled by this as in their direct ownership experience, their Rovers serve and continue to serve them well. I am not puzzled by that anti mindset. The reasons are all too obvious to me.
..

Ian

24-08-2009, 09:12

Particularly in Italy, the Rover 200 Series (1995 to 1999) was immensely popular.

soj

24-08-2009, 10:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by soj http://forums.mg-rover.org/images/dark/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?p=3310753#post3310753)
The fact that Mandelson and Brown are running the country kind of points to the fact that they can`t be inept or niave

I wouldn't be so sure! They are both un-elected, out of touch idiots as far as I can tell.

Yes, you are of course correct. I actually meant that they should not be able to claim that they are inept or niave but if that was their only way out i`m sure thay would have a go!

soj

24-08-2009, 10:51

The fact that the demand for Rover cars overseas was minimal is indicative of the lack of appeal that they had. The punters weren't stupid they knew that they could get a better quality product elsewhere and at a better price!

Most punters are stupid when it comes to buying cars!
The proof is that Peugeot and Citroen among others are and have been for many years selling models through spending many many millions on advertising selling at best average models at supposed discount prices also limited edition models and various other market sales tweaks etc.
When the 406 was launched Peugeot used the whole of the break in News at 10 to advertise their car. (i think they used an M People sound track, "search for the hero" or something....possibly) the cost of advertising per car sold was over £1400 iirc , so what? The budget was massive. I still think that the psa group spend more than any other manufacturer on tv advertising.
They see it on tv and buy it. Similar applies to VW, to me they seem to try to promote a nice warm, friendly, safe, middle class image, so do they sell more cars to private buyers than anyone else? maybe, i think so but i`m not sure.
(Clarkson and his ad. for the new Scirocco not included !)

SteveChilds

24-08-2009, 11:15

The fact that the demand for Rover cars overseas was minimal is indicative of the lack of appeal that they had. The punters weren't stupid they knew that they could get a better quality product elsewhere and at a better price!
Bit of a daft argument I'm afraid. In many countries Rover was held in higher esteem than it was in the UK!

xerif

24-08-2009, 11:45

Bit of a daft argument I'm afraid. In many countries Rover was held in higher esteem than it was in the UK!

Maybe once, but not at the end. Customers had little confidence in the marque once BMW jumped ship and the City Rover....RIP

soj

24-08-2009, 12:44

Maybe once, but not at the end. Customers had little confidence in the marque once BMW jumped ship and the City Rover....RIP

The reason for the end (the fact that the English seem to like to knock our home grown products) is basically what i feel the (thread is turning into) discussion is about, not at the actual end. The demand for Rover cars abroad was good, particularly as mentioned earlier in the thread for the 200, 400 and 600 (pre b*w)
I don`t think it was bad at all for the later models either. The City Rover was a desperate attempt so i feel it a little unfair picking on that one.

it`s just my interpretation though!

sadtosee

24-08-2009, 13:15

Is that a fact !

It has been my pleasure to help a number of both MG and Rover owners source parts on all five continents.
..

How may of those have cars post-600? The fact, and yes it is a fact, is that MG Rover's business plan evisaged an even split between UK & Export markets but they never even got close to predicted export sales.

The history prior to that wasn't much better either. Remember the USA relaunch debacle in the 1980's with the 800? Whatever happened to BL Australia?

A lot of LHD MGR's ended up being dumped at absolute rock bottom prices to places like Libya (to this day Tripoli is a wash with Rover 75's) because they had too many and couldn't dump in mainland Europe for fear of what it would do to residuals and the remaning dealers.

MGJohn

24-08-2009, 19:13

A lot of LHD MGR's ended up being dumped at absolute rock bottom prices to places like Libya (to this day Tripoli is a wash with Rover 75's) because they had too many and couldn't dump in mainland Europe for fear of what it would do to residuals and the remaning dealers.

Hmmm ... that would be shortly after the Rover 75 appeared and then BMW asset stripped and ran. That would really boost confidence in sales.... both in the UK and worldwide ..... figures ... or, just maybe sadtosee, you like so many others believe the real reason was because the cars were crap! Like many other Brits believe. Far far too many ... and you know what just maybe they're right, after all, Clueless Clarkson said so so must be right.
..

JohnSwitzer

24-08-2009, 21:10

The other thing that Xerif and other posters have completely ignored is that in many markets MGR distribution was undertaken via BMW’s distribution network, which quite understandably BMW took with them, after they abandoned Rover. To rebuild that network would have taken much more than 5 years that MGR had.

But hey, why let the blindingly obvious get in way of having a good swipe at MGR? :rolleyes:

Regards

John

streetrover

24-08-2009, 21:10

Yes post-600 brings to mind a certain company...

The fact that the demand for Rover cars overseas was minimal is indicative of the lack of appeal that they had. The punters weren't stupid they knew that they could get a better quality product elsewhere and at a better price!

The cars sold reasonably well overseas until quite late, particularly in markets where there was no domestic car product. Lack of dealerships and advertising didn't help. Brits didn't buy the cars for many years either and to this day the majority have never even been in one let alone bought one. I don't buy the idea people are so clever when it comes to buying cars but so stupid when it comes to making them.

So us Brits can be little Englanders but other nations who buy their own models aren't insular, xenophobic or patriotic? Yet they all make wonderful cars and we never do. Are we the only stupid ones then?

BTW is your 75 that bad? What experience of the other cars do you have?

Maybe once, but not at the end. Customers had little confidence in the marque once BMW jumped ship and the City Rover....RIP

Sales dropped critically low under BMW though. Was MGR left in a fit state to improve on the wonderful situation they were left in? No, they could expect to be somewhat shunned. Sales overseas in particular collapsed and MGR never re-entered markets they didn't inherit post-BMW. Were the cars no good (in which case we know who to blame) or was it down to company perception (including reckless gambling ambulance chasers and megalomaniac journalists smelling blood and in many cases the assumption the company was on its last legs or already went bust - especially across Europe and always resulting in car sales dropping).

soj

24-08-2009, 22:46

Yes post-600 brings to mind a certain company...

The cars sold reasonably well overseas until quite late, particularly in markets where there was no domestic car product. Lack of dealerships and advertising didn't help. Brits didn't buy the cars for many years either and to this day the majority have never even been in one let alone bought one. I don't buy the idea people are so clever when it comes to buying cars but so stupid when it comes to making them.

So us Brits can be little Englanders but other nations who buy their own models aren't insular, xenophobic or patriotic? Yet they all make wonderful cars and we never do. Are we the only stupid ones then?

BTW is your 75 that bad? What experience of the other cars do you have?

Sales dropped critically low under BMW though. Was MGR left in a fit state to improve on the wonderful situation they were left in? No, they could expect to be somewhat shunned. Sales overseas in particular collapsed and MGR never re-entered markets they didn't inherit post-BMW. Were the cars no good (in which case we know who to blame) or was it down to company perception (including reckless gambling ambulance chasers and megalomaniac journalists smelling blood and in many cases the assumption the company was on its last legs or already went bust - especially across Europe and always resulting in car sales dropping).

Nail......head !

xerif

25-08-2009, 09:41

soj

25-08-2009, 10:56

The Americans stopped buying their own cars as well. Can't think of a more patriotic nation. But a lot of americans would not support any rescue package for the remaining manufacturers. They buy Japanese and European.

America?
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC

http://http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC (http://http//online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC)

Rally Matt

25-08-2009, 11:54

back to Lord Mandleson and his wishes

Would that be the same Peter Mandleson that commited fraud by making a false declaration on his mortgage application to the Britannia Building Society by failing to disclose his depsit was in fact a friendly loan that had to be repaid? alternatively he would have commited a serious offence of accepting but not disclosing a sizeable cash gift.

Anyone else would have at least been banished from holding public office and most people "like us" would have been charged, convicted and most likley imprisoned.

Although I am highly critical of the P4 and their buniess accumen and ethics I am fairly sure that the organisation they directed did not fall foul of regulations as suggested. As has already been mentioned, PWC did not liquidate the co immediately but tried to move it as a going concern, even when you are insolvent you can still continue to trade if the business is considered a going concern and the accountants did.

Why are we wasting more money on this sorry saga?

sadtosee

25-08-2009, 13:05

Hmmm ... that would be shortly after the Rover 75 appeared and then BMW asset stripped and ran. That would really boost confidence in sales.... both in the UK and worldwide ..... figures ... or, just maybe sadtosee, you like so many others believe the real reason was because the cars were crap! Like many other Brits believe. Far far too many ... and you know what just maybe they're right, after all, Clueless Clarkson said so so must be right.
..

Selling cars (at a profit) is far more complicated than simply not making a bad car. Loads of excellent cars have been complete sales disasters for all sorts of car companies. Some cars, maybe for reason of pricing, positioning, advertising or whatever just don't hit the sweet spot of the market. It is not an exact science which is why huge multinational companies spend billions developing cars which bomb in the marketplace.

Neither the 400 or 600 were bad cars, they were mostly quite good, but they were flops in most respects in that neither (the 400 in particular) got close to their original sales or production targets. Rover geared Longbridge up to produce 250,000 odd 400's and they never got close.

Quite why they flopped is not clear, but it is probably mostly due to poor pricing and market positioning together with the fact that the buying public saw them as very lightly warmed over Hondas with very little rear Rover in them.

You can't blame it on badges or Clarkson or whatever other pie in the sky excuse people come up with either. The 1989-1994 200 was a big success - selling very strongly right up to 1994 and the new 400's introduction. The new 400 didn't perform as well as the old right from the word go which means that for some reason the market did not like it. Doesn't make it a bad car, just not a commercially successful one which the market liked.

ZRsteve

25-08-2009, 15:36

The 1989-1994 200 was a big success - selling very strongly right up to 1994 and the new 400's introduction. The new 400 didn't perform as well as the old right from the word go which means that for some reason the market did not like it. Doesn't make it a bad car, just not a commercially successful one which the market liked.

I think it was mainly the styling. The 200 was a striking, interesting car to look at. Like a small 800. By contrast, the 400 and 600 were bland. They melted into the mass of other bland cars on the road.

LeRich

25-08-2009, 19:31

Maybe once, but not at the end. Customers had little confidence in the marque once BMW jumped ship and the City Rover....RIP

Why would the Cityrover have affected Rover's abroad when it was only sold in the UK?

JohnSwitzer

25-08-2009, 21:57

Why would the Cityrover have affected Rover's abroad when it was only sold in the UK?

It was certainly previewed overseas and the (never actually sold under MGR) Mark 2 version made its debut at an obscure motor show in France, though I'm not sure it was actually ever officially sold outside the UK. That said, I have seen a few wearing Republic of Ireland numberplates.

Regards

John

Frank

29-08-2009, 21:51

CITYROVER indian car. but so are alot of jap cars are made there, and no one complaines about them,

soj

29-08-2009, 22:52

I think it was mainly the styling. The 200 was a striking, interesting car to look at. Like a small 800. By contrast, the 400 and 600 were bland. They melted into the mass of other bland cars on the road.

I think it is advertising and product placement more than anything else. Well i know it is really, look at the statistics, whilst you only have to look at ours or anyone else in europe government to know that statistics can prove that black is in fact white there is lots of evidence to state that advertising really works, a case in point would be B*W in the 70`s and Audi, product placement? Ford and Audi. There are loads of instances where you can point out a case where manufacturers are blatantly advertising products.
The exception is possibly the (real) Italian job film where the film company were (at the time rightly so) forced to buy the cars.