200SDi with new injectors - Idle vibration - MG-Rover.org Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 15:50 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
200SDi with new injectors - Idle vibration

Hi all,

I've got a 1999 200SDi and I've recently bought (from Dark Ice Designs) and fitted a new set of injectors.

The original ones had more than 150k miles, were knocking too much and the nozzles in the need of replacement (some fuel around the injectors) so I decided to get a set of 4 new injectors.

The problem is that after fitting them, using new washers and new silicone return fuel pipes the engine is on a rough idle. It vibrates too much than with the original injectors.
It runs fine on the road and I have no excess smoke. I've got a Synergy VP and the problem remains with it on or with it off.

I've released the top of each injector to remove any possible air that was on the system. When doing that on injector 2 and 3, it seemed that the idle returned to normal for a bit. After tighten it back, the vibration returned.
I thought that it could be a issue with injector 2 or injector 3 and I decided to bled all the fuel lines again... this time I've noticed no changes on the engine's vibration on all 4 injectors except for the slight juddering when releasing and retightening the top.

I'll try to make a video although I think on camera the vibration is never the same as live.

Can anyone please give me some tips? What can be wrong here?

Thank you.
nunorsilva is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 22:50
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under a car near scunthorpe
Car: Maestros, 200, 600, ZTT
Posts: 25,350
Send a message via MSN to E_T_V
When you loosen the fuel pipe with the engine running the engine should run roughly (as it is running on 3 cylinders). If there is no change then that injector is faulty. If all make the engine sound worse then you can assume that they are all working to some extent.

Injectors when they get old/worn don't knock. Indeed they often get quieter not louder.

If you can find someone locally to pop test all of the injectors that will reveal if any one or more are faulty.

Otherwise check the wire from injector one carefully. And measure the resistance between the two connections in the plug. From memory it should be around 120 ohms. If zero or infinite then you have a problem!
(The engine uses this signal to alter the injection timing).
Lastly if the vibration is intermittant it may be worth checking that the fuel pump belt timing and tension is ok. I once traced a mysterious idle issue to a botched belt change. The belt was far too loose and the ECU was getting in a flap trying to correct the timing at idle leading to a lumpy idle speed. A really rare fault, but I've seen it before.
E_T_V is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:45 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
Hi E_T_V.

Thank you for your reply.

What do you mean by "pop test the injectors"?

The resistance value you say, should it be between the two connections on the injector one plug or between the two connection the the engine loom plug? (Sorry for the dumb question).

I will also check the fuel pump drive belt although the vibration is not intermittent. I start the engine, it stays normal for about 2 or 3 seconds and then it starts vibrating continuously and with the same intensity.

I'll post back here with the results.
Thank you.
nunorsilva is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 21:02
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under a car near scunthorpe
Car: Maestros, 200, 600, ZTT
Posts: 25,350
Send a message via MSN to E_T_V
Quote:
Originally Posted by nunorsilva View Post
Hi E_T_V.

Thank you for your reply.

What do you mean by "pop test the injectors"?

The resistance value you say, should it be between the two connections on the injector one plug or between the two connection the the engine loom plug? (Sorry for the dumb question).

I will also check the fuel pump drive belt although the vibration is not intermittent. I start the engine, it stays normal for about 2 or 3 seconds and then it starts vibrating continuously and with the same intensity.

I'll post back here with the results.
Thank you.
Pop testing is essentially testing the opening pressure of the injector (and spray pattern), using a external fuel pumping device. You can see it in this video.
Please do not go ANYWHERE near spraying fuel. It can penetrate the skin and cause massive damage to you. The guy in the video uses no protection which is plain stupid.

The resistance you are measuring on the number one injector is the injector resistance (Rather than the engine wiring).

If the engine has a very regular tiny and momentary increase (blip) in the revs around once a second (usually worse or only happens when warm), then this is common with a tuned engine.
E_T_V is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-05-2017, 14:35 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
Hi E_T_V. Thank's once again for your explanations.

I'll try to find where to pop test the injectors.
As for the injector one resistance, here's the result:



I think it's ok, right?


I've made a video but I think it's not possible to verify the vibration on video as it is live:




I've drove a few more miles with it on this weekend and everything seems fine, except the idle vibration.

I've got to find where to pop test the injectors. I don't understand what can be happening here...
Could it be a engine mount that coincidentally "broke" when I fitted these injectors?

If the engine sound is normal and everything seems normal driving the car, what other variables are that could influence the idle vibration?
nunorsilva is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 11-05-2017, 09:16 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
I've been trying to figure this out but I've had no success. I've used Autocom to try to understand if there is something wrong but results seem fine:




The only way to pop test the injetors is to take them to a Bosch Repair Center and pay about 60 just for testing them.
This does not seems right to me after spending almost 400 on a set of brand new injectors.

Even my wife noticed the abnormal vibration of the car (when on idle, of course) when she drove it yesterday

Does anyone has any idea of what could be happening?

Thanks for reading and for any help.
nunorsilva is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 15-05-2017, 14:54 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
The car keeps driving fine and without an issue. I've disconnected the Synergy VP and reconnected it back and noticed no difference on idle.
I'm waiting for spare injectors so I can test them. At least I can test 3 of them.

Can I reuse the injector washer just for testing or should I use new ones on each test?
nunorsilva is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 15-05-2017, 15:08
Diesel Tuning Dude
 
Dakta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wakefield
Car: 75 Tourer Conn SE & 45 TDi VNT
Posts: 17,817
Garages
Send a message via MSN to Dakta
I used to anneal them and often got away with re-use

have you graphed the injected quantity, would you mind posting a screenshot of it up when the problems occuring?

in fact iq plus pump voltage together would be idea, comms is slow with MSA11 due to its age and technology so if you can just have the two together that'd help



Dieselpowered - file revisions ahead of the competition
Dakta is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 15-05-2017, 15:11 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakta View Post
I used to anneal them and often got away with re-use

have you graphed the injected quantity, would you mind posting a screenshot of it up when the problems occuring?

in fact iq plus pump voltage together would be idea, comms is slow with MSA11 due to its age and technology so if you can just have the two together that'd help
Hi Dakta,

Thanks for the info on the washers.

Yes, I think I can graph those values. I'll try to do it and post them here.

Thanks for the reply.
nunorsilva is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 15-05-2017, 21:40
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under a car near scunthorpe
Car: Maestros, 200, 600, ZTT
Posts: 25,350
Send a message via MSN to E_T_V
Sorry been away for a bit. Injector resistance is fine so you can discount that as an issue

Check the engine mount on the bottom/rear of the engine. This dogbone type mount is the one that usually fails. It doesn't look particularly bad in the video.

You haven't also changed the exhaust at the same time have you? If you mount it wrong it rubs on the rear beam and rattles the whole car!
E_T_V is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 15-05-2017, 21:46 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by E_T_V View Post
Sorry been away for a bit. Injector resistance is fine so you can discount that as an issue

Check the engine mount on the bottom/rear of the engine. This dogbone type mount is the one that usually fails. It doesn't look particularly bad in the video.

You haven't also changed the exhaust at the same time have you? If you mount it wrong it rubs on the rear beam and rattles the whole car!
Thanks for the feedback E_T_V,

I forgot to mention on my last reply that I've checked the engine mounts (the ones that can be checked at eyesight) and all seemed fine. It would be a tremendous coincidence that the engine mount failed on the exact moment that I swapped the injectors.
No, I've touched the exhaust for a long time now.

I'll try to get the graphics Dakta asked and I'm wating for some spare injectors so I can test all except for the first.

Thank you.
nunorsilva is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 15:59 Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portugal
Car: Rover 200 SDi '99
Posts: 162
Hi all,

I've been a bit overwhelmed with work and I haven't had the time to reconnect the Autocom to the car to see the graphics Dakta asked. Meanwhile, DarkIce sent me a set of used injectors to help me to figure this out and they arrived last Thursday.

On the weekend I got a few hours to do the testing.

I've replaced one at the time starting with the ones that seemed not good. I've replaced injector number 3 and the issue remained. Then I replaced injector number 2 (kept the used number 3 on the engine) and the engine still vibrated too much.

Then I replaced number 1 (keeping used injectors 2 and 3 on the engine) and the problem went away!
All from the start, the engine sounded as it should, with no vibrations!

I then switched back injectors number 2 and 3 and all seems fine.

The car is now with 3 new injectors (number 2, 3 and 4) and with the used injector 1.

The problem was on injector 1.

Is it possible that injector 1 was for the later version (for MG ZR/ZR and Rover 24/45) and caused the idle vibration the engine had?

Once again, thank you for all you help.
nunorsilva is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MG-Rover.org Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Idle vibration help Capt Doufos MG ZT / Rover 75 (Sponsored by Rimmer Bros) 4 22-08-2011 10:56
ZS 180 Vibration at Idle James C MG ZS / Rover 45 & 400 2 25-05-2010 13:37
Knocking/ vibration at idle grundon1 MG ZT / Rover 75 (Sponsored by Rimmer Bros) 7 11-04-2010 16:32
Idle Vibration webbywagon MG ZT / Rover 75 (Sponsored by Rimmer Bros) 9 19-01-2006 17:21
vibration at idle shoestring 'R8' Rovers (aka Wedges!!) 7 16-06-2004 06:42

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome