PG1 TorSen Bearing Renewal: Differential and Input Shaft. - MG-Rover.org Forums
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 30-12-2011, 21:28 Thread Starter
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PG1 TorSen Bearing Renewal: Differential and Input Shaft.

Got stuck in with renewing both Differential and both Input Shaft bearings on a PG1 Gearbox. Here are the four bearings I used. All Steel Caged for longevity.



Always a concern is the condition of the large C-Clip which locates around the outer bearing on the Layshaft. I have known these to be broken or twisted and that stops their release. No release means the two gearbox casings cannot be easily seperated without damage. This one was in perfect condition and I'd bet this box had never been opened up before. This is the C-Clip. The two ends clearly visible in the access hole :~



Soon had the two casings seperated revealing the gear clusters and selector mechanism :~



Removed the clusters and selector mechanism ~ where the heck does this lot go ...



Here are two of the bearings to be replaced. The input shaft bearing in the bell housing and the larger 6208 bearing on the differential :~



I checked these two bearings for wear :~



Click on the above image to see the vid.

Yes ... I had Radio 5 Live on in the background...

The smaller Input Shaft bearing was worn as can be seen in the vid but the Differential bearing seemed fine. Even so, all will be replaced with steel caged versions.

I used an aged two legged puller to draw the bearings off the differential :~





Pleased to see the Differential bearing journals were in perfect shape. This is a TorSen B Differential. TorSen A versions sometimes shear off here.



Drifted the two Differential bearings in place taking care not to damage the plastic speedo drive pinnion.





Drifted the Input Shaft Bearing into its location in the Bell housing. I used boiling water on the alloy casing to release the old one. That always works.



More follows.

EDIT to ADD @ 19:10 on 2nd January 2011.

One important thing to remember.

There is a single 14mm Bolt on the side of the casing which holds the Reverse Idler Gear Shaft in position. This also needs to be removed before the casings can be seperated and replaced later after final reassembly. This one :~


Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......

Last edited by MGJohn; 03-01-2012 at 17:10.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 30-12-2011, 21:38 Thread Starter
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Next job was to remove the larger Bearing at the outer end of the Input Shaft. This bearing sometimes remains on the top of the Input Shaft when seperating the casings. Also can drop out during operations. If it does not and Boiling water on the outside of its alloy housing does not work, there's a little access plug which when removed, allows the bearing to be drifted out ... carefully as in these two pictures :~





Watch for any shims in the housing behind this bearing when its removed. Replace them if disturbed.

The new bearing slotted into place easily using some wood to persuade it with a few taps :~



Cleaned the twin magnets and slotted them back into their place at the bottom of the gearbox :~



The job now done all that needs doing is reassembly. However, I did not do that today. Tomorrow I will give both casings a good clean prior to putting it all back together.

Ongoing.
.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 30-12-2011, 22:22
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Hi John

Looks a top job mate
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 31-12-2011, 08:52
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Intersting. If one was doing this for the first time, how do know where and how all those parts go back?

I may have a crack at this later next year on the non torson PG1 in my Rover 45 1.8. I did replace the gearbox at around 130k miles as the old one whined, however it turned out the replacment also whines. It whines in first gear (quite badly) and forth too.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 31-12-2011, 12:42
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Fantastic guide, can't wait to see the finished product. I might rebuilt my B6BST later this year and this guide has made it a lot easier.

Thanks again John!
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 31-12-2011, 12:53 Thread Starter
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Just take your time folks and learn as you go. That's all I did. No formal training whatsoever, just an analytical mind and the search to find how things work, or, not...
..

One tip here which I've made several times in the past. There is a large Inspection Plug on the gearbox which is always done up silly tight. Best to loosen that plug whilst the gearbox is on the car. Otherwise, off the car you will need to secure the box in a large vice to hold it in place when the leverage is applied to that access plug.

This is how I do it :~



One was so tight, with the box off the car, several kettles of boiling water and a club Hammer and Cold chisel later got the plug moving. Hate doing that but no alternative sometimes.
.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 31-12-2011, 13:04 Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

Another tip. That large seven ball bearing on the outer end of the Input shaft comes in TWO SIZES. Slightly larger on the "UPRATE" version for the Turbocharged Cars' Gearboxes, slightly smaller on the Normally Aspirated Cars.

This is the one fitted to the Turbo Boxes :~



Having only worked on Turbo PG1s, did not realise this size difference until I sent one to a Rover enthusiast in Israel. His car needed the smaller sized bearing.

Old Dog, New Tricks Scenario ...
.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 16:52 Thread Starter
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Did not touch any tools today. Here's some pictures of the cleaning up and partial reassembly of the PG1 Gearbox on New Year's Eve.

1... This is the wire brush in my forty year "old faithful'' Black and Dekker used to carefully clean up the interfaces of the two gearbox casings.



2... Crownwheel and Differential must be inserted in their location prior to refitting the twin Gear Clusters.



3... The Sector Fork Assemblies are best positioned with the Gear Clusters as one unit. Fiddly job as they are quite heavy. To fit them seperately is possible but requires careful partial lifting and positioning of the two rods the three large selector forks are on. I usually fit the Gear Clusters and their Gold Coloured ( usually ) Selector Forks as one assembly.



4... The Reverse Gear Idler Pinnion in the idle postion on its shaft.



5... This is where the Reverse and Gears 1-5 Selector Mechanisms are located.



6... Reverse Gear Selector in position with its two "black" 10mm bolts. The actual pinnion is in the 'idle' position.



7... Screwdriver shows this 'notch' in one of the Selector Fork Support Rods:~




8... Gears 1-5 Selector Mechanism bolted into place. Note the position of the "silver" bolt which is shorter than the other black bolts. It must go in this position and the Base Plate locates in that slot pictured above. The Base Plate will not locate properly until its in that slot. Note also, there is a fifth, much longer black bolt which locates the other end of the 1-5 Gear Selector mechanism.



9 & 10... Two close up pictures of the selector links.





11... Close up of the Reverse Gear Selector Fork holding the Reverse Gear Idler Pinnion in the idle position. I did all this on New Year's Eve. Then had to pack up as the rest of the evening I spent with some friends and neighbours seeing the New Year in. Got some sleep after about 4am .. not much though.



HAPPY NEW YEAR Folks.... lets hope 2012 is a better one for us all than 2011, much better ideally.
.............

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 21:06
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Worth noting that in pic three the 5th geat syncro hub isn't fitted correctly and hence the bearing (top-left) does not sit fully on the shaft, (It does when the 5th gear syncro is fitted properly).

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 21:33 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_T_V View Post
Worth noting that in pic three the 5th geat syncro hub isn't fitted correctly and hence the bearing (top-left) does not sit fully on the shaft, (It does when the 5th gear syncro is fitted properly).


Now there's a man who knows his PG1s...

I have not touched the box since I took those pictures on New Year's Eve prior to rushing out to a New Year get together. Will post up further pictures of ongoing progress when time allows me to complete the job.

More follows..
.
.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 21:45
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I've got 3 in pieces at the moment trying to make one good one! God I'm a sad git!

I've fallen foul of that particular issue on my second rebuild. Sadly it was only noticed once it was in the car - hence it was a hard lesson to learn and one that won't be forgotten!
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 22:05 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_T_V View Post
I've got 3 in pieces at the moment trying to make one good one! God I'm a sad git!

I've fallen foul of that particular issue on my second rebuild. Sadly it was only noticed once it was in the car - hence it was a hard lesson to learn and one that won't be forgotten!
A very hard lesson indeed.

In the final part of this thread, as I have done in the past, I will stress the need to check that all SIX gears can be selected BEFORE refitting the gearbox to the car. Plus the simple method I use to do that. Sadly, a number of folks fitted the box to the car without doing that check first so subsequently discover they cannot select some or any gears, usually 5th and/or reverse.

I also used to have several spare PG1s about the place. Metal thieves removed them for me.... cowsons. Worth far more than scrap value.

Metal theft is really getting out of hand in the former green and pleasant.

I too have made one good one out of several. The best being fitting a TorSen to a MG Montego PG1 box. The MG Turbo PG1 has the same gear cluster as fitted to the TomCat Turbos.
.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-01-2012, 19:51 Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

Now for final checks and reassembly.

First a few important points to remember. E_T_V helpfully pointed out that the outer bearing on the input shaft must be fully home as in this picture and not as shown in his earlier post #9 on this thread.



If it is not fully home, then the two casings cannot be bolted up and fully closed. All being well, the two casings will close fully.

Right, I never apply any sealant to the casing interface at this stage. I prefer to do a 'dry run' assembly check first that all SIX gears can be selected and engaged. I do this in the following way once the casings are fully together ~ I only use four or five of the bolts to hold the dry assembly together. I then get a suitable length of rod and place that into the Roll Pin Hole in the short selector shaft stub here on the Gearbox :~



I also use a pair of needle nosed pliers to hold open that C-Clip whilst tapping the casing lightly to hold it open as in these before~after pictures :~



The opened C-Clip will now be held in this setting. No need to slip it into its groove during this 'dry run' check stage, that will come later.



You can see the C-Clips groove just under the bearing where the RHP is etched. RHP are a bearing manufacterer and had a factory in Stonehouse, Gloucestershire. if still there. I believe like so many other areas of UK manufacturing, now in foreign ownership. Anyway, back on track.

There are three detent/default positions for the selector stub. Fully away from the gearbox will select gears 1, 3 and 5. Midway will be Neutral. Fully towards the Gearbox will select Gears 2, 4 and Reverse. Any gear can be selected with the stub in the Midway position by twisting the rod clockwise or anticlockwise and pushing it forward or backwards from the central neutral position. If you sit in the car and move the gear lever to all SIX gear positions, think about what that does to the stub selector on the gearbox. It's hard to visualise at first but, that's what happens when you select any of the six gears from neutral.

Now, by selecting any gear by twisting that rod and pushing it back and forth, if you rotate the Input Shaft in the centre of the Bell Housing and observe the Differential Drive bearing, you can check that the gear is working properly. As I have done in these two short duration videos in two forward gears. Because of the varying leverage involved, twisting the Input Shaft with 5th gear selected requires much more effort ( Arm power torque ... ) than say 1st or Reverse gear. Click on these smaller images to activate the vids :~





Repeating the same having selected REVERSE by rotating the Rod in the stub from neutral position, twisting it CLOCKWISE and then pushing it FORWARDS, then rotating the Input Shaft in the Bellhousing again clockwise the Differential Bearing will rotate in the opposite direction ... the only gear that will do that obviously as shown in this short video footage :~



Not for nothing is the gear Lever so called. It requires quite a lot of leverage to twist and push or pull that gear selector stub to select all SIX gears. It can be done manually though. In this way all SIX gears can be selected. All being well and all six check and pass, the casings can be seperated by complete removal or just raised sufficiently so the sealant can be applied. I prefer complete removal. Here's the sealant I use in place prior to reassembly. I warmed the tube as in these colder temperatures the sealant moves more freely when warmed. It will soon cool on the cold metal anyway. Here's how I apply it. No need to go mad with the sealant, a smear all around is quite sufficent :~



Then the casings are placed together and again you need to open up the C-Clip and tap the casings as previously in the dry run using the needle nosed plier. Once that's done, I use only four or five bolts to hold the casings together just in case they need to be seperated again. I then check again all six gears can be selected as previously described and all being well, refit the remaining 12mm casing bolts. You will then observe some of the sealant squeezed out around the whole perimeter of the casing interfaces. This is a good sign that the seal will be good and no gearbox lubricant will pass that lot...

So, just a few final things and the job is complete. First, insert and tighten the 14mm bolt on the side casing to secure the reverse gear idler shaft :~



Then look into the access hole and check that C-Clip. It may have self located and closed in its groove in the top lay/counter shaft bearing. If it has not and is still open like this :~



Then I carefully turn the gearbox upside down ( Bellhousing uppermost ) and gently tap the box onto a wooden block. Be careful ~ the PG1 is substantial and hevay. Get help if neccessary as the last thing you need is to drop it. The weight of the heavy gear cluster usually moves the bearing sufficiently for the C-Clip to audibly click into its slot like this :~



Then I replace the access plug manually ~ never with a power tool as it is not only unnecessary, but the soft alloy of the casing threads can easily be damaged. That is bad news. Here's what I use :~



That completes the process and the gearbox is ready to fit to the car. If I can think of any more things to help, I'll post them up.

Meantime, good luck if you attempt this task. It's well worth while.

Finally 1 ~ do not forget to put the 2.2 litres of MTF 94 lubricant into the Gearbox when its back in the car. Forget to do that essential job and your gearbox will not last long..... 'appens.

Finally 2 ~ before starting work, I had a few bets on the Premiership Football this afternoon listening to the Radio5 Live commentary and updates as I worked on the gerabox with lots of hot cuppas to keep me warm in the bright sunshine. I often do that.

A Super Yankee Bet including Swansea, Stoke, Norwich ( Three Aways ), Wolverhampton and Fulham ( Two Homes ). Could not believe it when Fulham won 2-1 after being a goal down to Arsenal. Done rather nicely anyway. Had @ 5-1 Wolves won ( yes I know, asking a lot and at one-all could be ... ) my bet would have come to a nice few quid indeed. That is an understatement.

Altogether a very productive day....
..

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......

Last edited by MGJohn; 13-02-2012 at 23:55.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-02-2012, 16:29
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Pleas how many mm have NSK B28-36???
I need Bearing-ball - 28 x 75mm x19mm
I need for gearbox on my ZR160 1.8
My original Bearing is from RHP 4/MJ28 and is 28 x 75mm x19mm
On one rover page i found this NSK B28-36 = 28 x78x20, but how ?

Last edited by Mikla; 06-02-2012 at 16:48.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 13-09-2012, 11:00
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I am trying to find a source of the outer input shaft bearings - can anyone help?
The current bearing in my box is the 75mm OD x 19mm wide x 28mm ID
Hope someone can help
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 13-09-2012, 11:36
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Ask null Byets over on rovertech he sell steel caged bearings he should be able to help you in your quest for bearings
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 13-09-2012, 14:50
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Originally Posted by zrfinch View Post
Ask null Byets over on rovertech he sell steel caged bearings he should be able to help you in your quest for bearings
Thanks,

sent him a message
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 25-04-2014, 12:16
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At last...

I've found this thread..

I've messaged you John

I'm looking to do the same thing uprate my PG1 160 box for the 1.8 K-Series Turbo project I have going on. I'm looking to tackle the gearbox first.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 21-08-2016, 09:46
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In case it helps someone at some point, these are the bits I messed up:


Removing the casing. its not difficult, tap it upwards using a rubber mallet. Providing that circlip is held open it will tap off, no force really required and don't try hitting down on the bearing, that will only damage it.
Just keep kitting it upwards, don't try and go back down again. If somethings moved inside you risk shattering the casing.

The casing is sooooo thin and light it wasn't what I expected at all. It will break if forced.

Make sure when rebuilding:
The selector plate goes into the notch correctly. It's easy to get it underneath the selector shaft, rather than in the slot. This will stop the casing closing up.
Make sure all he bits go back in! Yup forgot a handful of shims!! (Yes really!!)

You'll want to test all the gears engage correctly. not as easy as it sounds as the post in the middle of the selector mech wants to jump out of it's hole and isn't secured at the top so it's hard work to jiggle.
Just make sure that post is located in it's hole at the bottom and don't touch the mechanism or gear selector until after the casing is closed.

When closing up the case don't force it. You can push it closed easily by hand so don't hit it of use the bolts, if it doesn't want to close, something is wrong. take it off again!
If you're struggling with the circlip going all the way home, you can slide a screwdriver into the hole and hook it underneath the LH top nut and lever it upwards until it clicks.

I shattered a couple of casings. Tried Alu brazing which wouldn't seal the small cracks. JB Weld was a much better options.


Thread revival but might just save someone some pain!
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