Freelander 1.8 HGF repair - my plan, any thougths? - MG-Rover.org Forums
 
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 28-07-2011, 17:42 Thread Starter
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Freelander 1.8 HGF repair - my plan, any thougths?

Hi all!

A friend of mine had a HGF on his Freelander 1.8 petrol -2000 for a week ago. The car has now 46500 miles on the clock and he bought it for a year ago. I have decided to help him out and do the HG replacement for him.
As he described to me, the car had suddenly a serious loss of power until it stopped while he was driving without any warning (overheating). The symptoms where no water in the expansion tank and mayo in oil. It ran fine when cold.

Yesterday i removed the cylinder head and my observations is:
- Water in oil - brown emulsion.
- Inlet manifold gasket was replaced by the previous owner.
- OEM head gasket fitted with plastic dowels, elastomer loose from gasket.
- Cylinder head surface looks fine, no porosity and no indention from the fire rings.
- Liners are flush with cylinder head and even between each other.
- Cylinder head had original height (never skimmed)
- No melted plastic parts at the cylinder head/block

Hopefully he hasn't cooked the cylinder head soft, but time will show this.
Regarding the liner heights, I think these are to low to fit a MLS gasket.

So far, I think a reasonable plan would be:

- Have the cylinder head skimmed.
- Fit an uprated oil rail.
- Fit the uprated payen BW750 elastomer gasket with steel dowels (this one is less tolerant regarding liner heights compared to the MLS gasket)
- Fit a head saver shim ( http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT )
- Reuse the cylinder head bolts
- Fit a new inlet manifold gasket
- Fit a new water pump, timing belt + tensioner

What do you think? does this seems like a reasonable plan that will work?



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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 28-07-2011, 20:41
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Although I prefer not to see a liner stand proud of less than 0.002" The Rover Service instruction always said that flush was OK and given no alternative I would build with that.

There is no proof that I am aware of to support the theory of MLS gaskets being less tolerant of liner height problems. This originated in a piece I wrote when the gasket was first introduced and I was speculating on the effectiveness of the new design. Since then, everyone seems to have quoted it as a proven fact. However, in general the MLS gasket design is less tolerant of poor surface finish and flatness so a skim may be worthwhile.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 29-07-2011, 17:37 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1955diesel View Post
Although I prefer not to see a liner stand proud of less than 0.002" The Rover Service instruction always said that flush was OK and given no alternative I would build with that.

There is no proof that I am aware of to support the theory of MLS gaskets being less tolerant of liner height problems. This originated in a piece I wrote when the gasket was first introduced and I was speculating on the effectiveness of the new design. Since then, everyone seems to have quoted it as a proven fact. However, in general the MLS gasket design is less tolerant of poor surface finish and flatness so a skim may be worthwhile.
Hi,
The liner height is my biggest concern here. There might be one other alternative, and that is to shim the liners like I did on my Rover 75 ( This car had 2x HGF, need some advice )and fit a MLS gasket. It seems to work well and that car has covered 9500 miles since the repair without any problems. The backside with this is that it involves a lot more work to pull the liners and pistons and put it back again with the liner shims and sealant.
I am still not sure witch way to go, but I have ordered parts for both alternatives. A liner height of 0.003" might give me a better stomach feeling...

P.S.
Is there any easy way to clean up the oil emulsion in the engine and intake manifold?

Last edited by Beinet1; 29-07-2011 at 17:44.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 13:43
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If you want ot go the whole hog, Dave Andrews can produce new liners for the K series to overcome the liner height issue
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 04:07 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mills View Post
If you want ot go the whole hog, Dave Andrews can produce new liners for the K series to overcome the liner height issue
Hi,
This is nice to know and would be a great alternative if you are doing a complete engine rebuild

I have decided to go for the "shim liners and fit MLS" solution. The shims are cheap and I have a positive experience using them on my Rover 75. It involves some more work, but I will sleep much better when the liners stand proud 0.003"
I used the evening yesterday to prepare for sump removal and some cleaning. This water/oil emulsion creates a real mess!!
The cylinder head will be skimmed today.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-08-2011, 04:32 Thread Starter
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Hi all,

All parts arrived from the UK last friday and I had som hours on this car yesterday. The cylider head is nicely skimmed and I assembled the cams back into place and made it ready for fitment. I also had the lilners and pistons pulled, cleaned and put back into the block with shims and hylomar sealant. The liners stand now proud 0.003"-0.004". The pistons was also put back into place.

Here are some pictures :


Liners and pistons removed


Liners cleaned and ready for fitment

0.003" Liner shim on liner

Hylomar blue added

Liners back into the block, temporary held in place with liner retainers made by some washers, piece of tube and cylinder head bolts.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-08-2011, 04:03 Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

I had some more "quality time" yesterday. Put head back into place with the new MLS gasket. Uprated oil rail installed and sump back into place. Things are moving forward Next step will be to replace the timing belt + water pump and have the manifolds installed. Forgot to take photos this time
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2011, 10:23
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NEVER reuse the head bolts.

Whenever I do a Rover head gasket (which is often!) I always replace:

Head gasket (MLS, with shim)
Head bolts
Thermostat
Radiator Cap
Water pump
All other gaskets and seals (cam seals, inlet and exhaust manifold and rocker cover gaskets)
Oil and filter (flushing oil first, then good oil. sometimes flush twice)
Coolant

I also do the timing belt and spark plugs.

I've only had one fail again, and that was after 2 years - and that was an elastomer gasket.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2011, 11:59 Thread Starter
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Yeti,

I will not say that I am rigth, but several forum users claims its OK to reuse the head bolts for the K-engine. They are so long that they are not stretched past their yield limit, like the short bolts in a conventional engine assembly.

Please correct me if I am totally wrong
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2011, 13:55
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No, no - the official 'word' is that if the bolts aren't stretched beyond a certain limit, you can re-use them.

For the price of them, I'd rather not take the chance, and just replace them every time.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2011, 04:13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeti View Post
No, no - the official 'word' is that if the bolts aren't stretched beyond a certain limit, you can re-use them.

For the price of them, I'd rather not take the chance, and just replace them every time.
Ok, thats what I have heard
There was an issue with shipping costs to have the bolts shipped to Norway, and since the bolts havent been touched since the car left the factory I decided to reuse them. Replacing the bolts is not a bad idea

Last edited by Beinet1; 12-08-2011 at 04:45.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2011, 04:24 Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I had most things in place yesterday and did a dry startup to see if everything worked. I was not happy with how the engine was running, felt like it was running on 2 or 3 cylinders only.
When I turned the engine after fitting the timing belt, it felt like there was little or no compression. It was not easy to get it running, and I just had it running for 10 secs. I turned the engine after it was stopped, and I could feel that there was compression/resistance when turning on at least 2 cylinders. It felt better than before the startup. I am sure that I have got the timing correct and camshaft sprockets mounted correctly, but I think I shall double check it. I rather suspect that there is something with the valves/tappets making them not to close perfectly. When the engine was dismantled, it was full of emulsified oil/water and also thick "gunk" like grease in the sump. All this was cleaned out, but may some of this had find its way into the hydraulic tappets and make them "overfilled" so the valves would not close properly? Or could some of the valves been sticking fore some reason? The engine ran well from cold before it was put to pieces, so I am not suspecting any bent valves.
What do you think? Any help are greatly appreciated

P.S.

I am suspecting that I have issue #2 found in this post: Rover 25 engine won't start
What can I do about this?

Last edited by Beinet1; 11-08-2011 at 05:00.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-08-2011, 04:20 Thread Starter
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Hi all,

Started off yesterday to solve this problem. When I turned the cranckshaft, I could feel good compression on 2 cylinders, some on 1 and nothing on the last. Seems like gummed tappets to me. I put the last bits into place and flushed and filled the cooling system. I decided to start up the engine and bring it up to running temperature. Hopefully the hot oil would free the tappets. The "Hippo" was started and after a few minutes there was a huge difference. I took it for a drive for 10 minutes, and now the engine purrs like a kitten with no tappet sound at all Temp gauge stood rock solid at center all the time and no leaks seen. I could now feel compression on all cylinders when turning by hand. I will give the engine an oil flush & change before before I am done with this job. A beer was opened that evening

P.S.
Traces of coolant was seen on the old waterpump. Loosing coolant slowly over time through the waterpump migth been the cause of the HGF on this car. The owner have never opened the hood to do any checking. I guess that this could be avoided if this car just had some more TLC, or at least have the HG replaced before it overheated.
So far, I have used 12 working hours on this job. Needless to say that cleaning up all the mess inside the engine + the work done on the bottom end are the most time consuming parts here

Last edited by Beinet1; 12-08-2011 at 04:44.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-08-2011, 07:22 Thread Starter
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What would be a good practice regarding the hydraulic tappets when doing a HG replacement? Are you able to compress the tappets in any way before putting them back in? Or will it be sufficient to store them drowned in diesel or ATF fluid to just soften up the gunk before putting them back in? Take them to pieces and clean them up would be the best alternative, but this is pretty time consuming and I would avoid this if I could

All advice are greatly appreciated
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 13-08-2011, 23:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beinet1 View Post
What would be a good practice regarding the hydraulic tappets when doing a HG replacement? Are you able to compress the tappets in any way before putting them back in? Or will it be sufficient to store them drowned in diesel or ATF fluid to just soften up the gunk before putting them back in? Take them to pieces and clean them up would be the best alternative, but this is pretty time consuming and I would avoid this if I could

All advice are greatly appreciated
Depends on how contaminated the oil is ?

If clean oil then I just squeeze each tappet a few times to dump some of the oil from the tappet.

If emulsified oil I will strip the tappets down completely and clean them in white spirit. A laboriousness task.....................
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 13-08-2015, 08:49 Thread Starter
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Hi all,

Just a quick update:
The owner of that car had it for a year after this repair and used it daily before he sold it. It ran nicely all the time but had a slight and even coolant loss which seemed to not be any problem as long as it was monitored and topped up.

The experience is as seen before, the MLS may tend to weep some coolant and might not be the best alternative when doing a repair. Using the elastomer gasket togheter with a 0,5mm saver shim is a much better solution by my experience: http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...0&postcount=74
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 24-12-2016, 19:17
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For the price of them, I'd rather not take the chance, and just replace them every time.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 15:57
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For the price of them, I'd rather not take the chance, and just replace them every time.
Exactly. It's just not worth it.
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