Robots don't buy cars. - MG-Rover.org Forums
 7Likes
  • 1 Post By MGJohn
  • 3 Post By streetrover
  • 1 Post By MGJohn
  • 1 Post By streetrover
  • 1 Post By MGJohn
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 11:19 Thread Starter
Supporter
 
MGJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucestershire - Cotswold Cockney
Car: MG Montego Turbo; 620ti x3; MG ZS; MGF and MG ZT 1.8t x2; MG ZT-T x1
Posts: 21,205
Robots don't buy cars.

Last summer, I visited the Oxfordshire former Rover Group Factory at Cowley. Yes, where some of our 75s and my MG Montego Turbo was built. Very impressive and lost count of the huge number of massive Robots incessantly at work banging out stuff without so much as saying a word but, very, very noisy all the same. Ear defenders a must. Very few actual humans to be seen anywhere.

A third of a century ago, a conducted factory tour of Austin-Rover Group's factory at Longbridge saw lots of productive activity and ... lots of active staff. Twenty odd years previously, a visit to various UK Locomotive works refurbishing Steam Locomotives and manufacturing new Diesel Locomotives was very impressive with lots of actively skilled staff. Not now. Those hundreds of impressive Class 66 Heavy freight Diesel Locomotives and other rolling stock you see now on what was once British Rail, were all imports having been made many miles away from the UK. Providing jobs and profit for ... not the UK. No end to it.

Forty years ago, a life-long friend worked for London Transport. A good job and one which saw him on an exchange with his equivalent in Canada Transport for a spell. He told me that when he stepped into a Railway Carriage over there, he spotted the manufacturer's works plate. The wording must have been very familiar to anyone stepping into London Underground Rolling Stock in the past. Those words :~

THE GLOUCESTER CARRIAGE AND WAGON COMPANY

That factory site is now a large Retail park ... selling mainly imported goods.

It's what we do, or, just maybe, DID prior to June 23rd which trumped those not fit for purpose types in what has become the short sighted, less caring and clueless Westmonster.

I have been banging this and other drums for more than ten years. Much more as I looked beyond a profit by next Tuesday or, export jobs, sell off and asset strip and run with the short term proceeds.... of benefit to a precious few. That was rife and still is. BHS anyone.

So where will all the needed employment come from to enable most folks to buy stuff if robots are employed instead or, worse than that, jobs exported when stuff made elsewhere? UK does not even make many robots, more hugely expensive job destroying imports. Guess where those Cowley Robots were manufactured. It is just the tip of the Iceberg and long term does not much appear any better. That stuff made elsewhere will still be wanted to be sold here in the UK to take advantage of fatter margins.

Skilled workers dumped without a second thought is now uncaring and rife. The trend of parasitical so called foreign control under the guise of "Investment" still appears the way to go. Go being the operative word.

Those we entrust to the UK people and our Nation's well being every few years clearly evident now most have not been fit for purpose for far too long. They are the "I'm alright Jacks and Jills" blind, nothing to see here types who cushioned against those harsher realities their short sighted policies create severely affecting the rest of us, still appears of little concern to these not fit for purpose I'm alright types.

June 23rd has shaken most of those nothing to see here complacent types to their clueless cores. About time and rightly so. They simply did not get it and some are determined not to do so still. Such are the abuses and corrupt powers of the privileged.

Indigenous UK manufacturing has been deliberately and systematically neglected with numerous examples existing to illustrate this on massively short sighted widespread scale. Selling off of National Assets, not least the once massively asset rich former Rover Group to a major manufacturing competitor ... for a fraction of its true value. Cue much asset stripping and cherry picking. What a turn up that was although some, no names, no pack drill, forecast at the time of the uber-cheap takeover it would all end in tears.

Now bet that's cheered you all up no end....
deebee likes this.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
MGJohn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 20:02
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: ROCK FERRY, WIRRAL
Car: 25X, 25 1.6, 25 2.0D Rep:■■■■■■■■■■
Posts: 35,279
ROVER-25X is offline  
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 21:05
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Car: MGZS180,MGZR160,MGF VVC,MG Maestro T16, Rover 111
Posts: 5,566
I think I can see where you are coming from John but British car manufacturing was already on the decline when we joined the EU and much of what we do now in the UK is because we are in the EU, if the Japanese were looking to set up new plants in the west now they wouldn't be looking at the UK but somewhere in the EU27.

I visited Dagenham twice in the late seventies, for every skilled worker there was another less skilled ready to step in for a few minutes during breaks etc, it always struck me as a waste when with a little bit of cross training that one "extra" could cover several skilled workers.

In 1980 I had a summer job in a factory where they made specialist machine tools, I was in the maintenance department, part of our work was installing computer controlled CNC machines, some of the first in the UK, and "Made in Japan". The company was US owned and the factory soon closed with the work moved to the far east.

In 1990 I was working for freight forwarding company as a sales rep, I won a contract to import the first high tech exercise machines (the ones with screens etc) into the UK from the far east. I also arranged a contract where we would arrange collection of specialist electronics from factories around the far east and get them delivered to customers in the USA but making it look like they were supplied by a British firm, make of that what you will.

The UK has been loosing ground in manufacturing longer than most people are willing to admit.
Talkingcars is offline  
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 21:09 Thread Starter
Supporter
 
MGJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucestershire - Cotswold Cockney
Car: MG Montego Turbo; 620ti x3; MG ZS; MGF and MG ZT 1.8t x2; MG ZT-T x1
Posts: 21,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROVER-25X View Post
Calm down, calm down. Best read with a Scouse accent...



Yeah... I know. The Wirral aint Scouser habitat .. not far away though ...

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
MGJohn is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 21:21 Thread Starter
Supporter
 
MGJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucestershire - Cotswold Cockney
Car: MG Montego Turbo; 620ti x3; MG ZS; MGF and MG ZT 1.8t x2; MG ZT-T x1
Posts: 21,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkingcars View Post
I think I can see where you are coming from John but British car manufacturing was already on the decline when we joined the EU and much of what we do now in the UK is because we are in the EU, if the Japanese were looking to set up new plants in the west now they wouldn't be looking at the UK but somewhere in the EU27.

I visited Dagenham twice in the late seventies, for every skilled worker there was another less skilled ready to step in for a few minutes during breaks etc, it always struck me as a waste when with a little bit of cross training that one "extra" could cover several skilled workers.

In 1980 I had a summer job in a factory where they made specialist machine tools, I was in the maintenance department, part of our work was installing computer controlled CNC machines, some of the first in the UK, and "Made in Japan". The company was US owned and the factory soon closed with the work moved to the far east.

In 1990 I was working for freight forwarding company as a sales rep, I won a contract to import the first high tech exercise machines (the ones with screens etc) into the UK from the far east. I also arranged a contract where we would arrange collection of specialist electronics from factories around the far east and get them delivered to customers in the USA but making it look like they were supplied by a British firm, make of that what you will.

The UK has been loosing ground in manufacturing longer than most people are willing to admit.
Cannot see too much wrong with what you have written James, but solving those problems that you described by completely severing and destroying the Nation's once very strong Industrial Spine in quick-fix short-termism fashion was not the correct solution by the myopic folks we vote in every four or five years or so.

All very well to wrongly blame those lazy Brummie and other workers but, that was not the answer for the longer term well being of this Nation. Now it's all coming home to roost big time and most certainly looks set to get worse before any chance of getting better. No Government can solve the problems, only the people can do that if they still have sufficient of the right stuff. There was a time when I would without hesitation bet big money that we do possess sufficient quantities of the right stuff. Now I'm no longer confident we do.

Still, why should I give a Monkey's. I'm alright Jack. I'm off to buy a new car. Such consumerism is good for the economy. Where's those nice BMW details... Sorted.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
MGJohn is offline  
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 19-02-2017, 21:40
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Car: MGZS180,MGZR160,MGF VVC,MG Maestro T16, Rover 111
Posts: 5,566
Mmmmm - BMW own one of the most British of British brands, and assemble them at Goodwood, one of the most quintessentially British venues for stately homes, horse racing, and motorsport.

I say assemble, as everything comes in from Germany in German owned artics. They do cut the leather to make the seats, but even the hides are from German cows.

So that deals with Rolls Royce, what about Bentley, they are still built in Crewe, by Audi!
As we used to say in the 70's "buy Blitish".
Talkingcars is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 02:31
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: ROCK FERRY, WIRRAL
Car: 25X, 25 1.6, 25 2.0D Rep:■■■■■■■■■■
Posts: 35,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGJohn View Post
Calm down, calm down. Best read with a Scouse accent...

Eey, you askin' ?
ROVER-25X is offline  
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 19:15
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 63
Sad reality of the 'global economy'. Unfortunately while companies are chasing profits they will always go where they can get plentiful labour for little money. Because of minimum wages and workers rights, this country is always on the loosing end until the other countries rights catch up, or the government puts such high import taxes on things that it makes economic sense to build stuff at home. But then the price goes up because you have to pay people here more to do the same job as someone from the other side of the world who does it for pence. The joy of a global market.
lsto is offline  
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 20:34
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lincoln
Car: 06 MG ZR+120
Posts: 8,273
Depends which way you look at it - the UK has in the past been very successful in attracting foreign companies to start up factories here, not so much because of our membership of the EU (although that has certainly been a factor) but because our terms and conditions of employment actually lagged behind those of most of the other countries that were EU members at the time - UK working hour rules were much more flexible than countries like France and Germany, wages in the UK used to be lower than the prime competitors for those businesses, and (very importantly), if the need to make redundancies arises in the future, UK redundancy rules are very lenient by comparison - notice periods and the level of redundancy settlements in the UK are a fraction of what some other EU countries impose (as I discovered when a pan European company I used to work for was taken over, and large parts of it shut down - the redundancy packages for the UK employees was about one sixth of what the company was compelled to pay redundant employees in the Netherlands).

Nowadays, Eastern Europe and even more, Far Eastern Asia are so cheap for manufacturing, that not even avoiding EU import tariffs is any incentive to manufacture most products within Europe, so in the here and now all of western Europe manufacturing is suffering.
Man in the Car is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 10:01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Daventry (not Coventry or Dagenham!)
Car: MG3 3Style
Posts: 6,350
I don't know why anyone is surprised. A bit of a rant so maybe the following content is not entirely accurate or at least more extreme than the reality of the situation but I'll take the plunge anyway...

The UK version of globalism is still City of London financial services and trickle down. That means everything can theoretically be made elsewhere by foreign-owned companies as the money to buy the products ultimately comes down to us mere mortals from money generated by the CoL. Money is made out of feeding off of other countries economic activity instead of through internal production.

So a few UK regions end up with EU Peripheral/southern European levels of economic prosperity but you can't make an omelette etc. etc...

We are (or at least were) told it's globalism that manufacturing goes elsewhere, but it doesn't go Africa or (most of) Asia, instead it goes to China and elsewhere in Europe. We are told foreign-owned = inward investment. But it can just as easily mean lift and shift, and not necessarily to places any more low-cost than France, the U.S. or Germany (i.e. possibly higher cost than UK, but perhaps not once one factors in the cost of trying to fire workers or close plants in these countries). It's just over 10 years since Ryton shut after PSA got millions from the government or they'd walk away. They got the money AND walked. Now they've got Vauxhall from GM so it's still going on (US-owned GM is at least a known quantity, PSA will cut down rival products, dealers and production and get away with it like BMW did - the French government, Paris banks will always be there to bail them out -again - so it's no more going to be a business decision than closing Ryton and opening Slovakia was. That's when we see the true nationalistic colours of companies like PSA).

There used to be a poster on this forum years ago who was very globalist and always went on about the UK manufacturing ops of the French and Japanese companies (so we didn't need MGR etc. then again he tried to convince others the French didn't buy French etc.) and dismissed the assembly nature of these operations but those with this sentiment are the first to complain about BREXIT's weak Pound (its not BREXIT's, it's the money markets' - BREXIT hasn't happened yet) being bad for the UK car manufacturing ops because so much of the product is just assembled imports. Think about that for a moment possums.

Then again most so-called globalists don't seem to mind the EU keeping all these barriers to movement and trade to outside the EU and positively cheer on the muscle-head approach of ruining trade with the UK post-BREXIT. Apparently wanting a few modest restrictions (post-BREXIT) or concessions to dogma (prior to Feb last year and with the taken-up request that if you don't like it you can leave - so we had a referendum...) is not acceptable and instead we must accept a 'punish the UK to stop others leaving' deal, i.e. a bad deal or we get accused of desiring hard BREXIT. Yet none who criticise the UK government (and the way is lead by politicians playing politics) bother to put pressure on the EU for pushing the hard BREXIT agenda.

Not that BREXIT should overshadow structural and ideological issues that go back decades...

End of rant!
MGJohn, Man in the Car and deebee like this.

Last edited by streetrover; 06-03-2017 at 10:58.
streetrover is offline  
post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 10:41 Thread Starter
Supporter
 
MGJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucestershire - Cotswold Cockney
Car: MG Montego Turbo; 620ti x3; MG ZS; MGF and MG ZT 1.8t x2; MG ZT-T x1
Posts: 21,205
That's not a rant StreetRover

That's not a rant StreetRover, it's telling it like it actually is with no fake news negativity slant content.

If only the UK's media told it like it is rather than how they see fit to tell it. Here I have in mind the increasingly imbalanced "Fake News" slants by the so called British Broadcasting Corporation.. Anti-British more like. Over the longer term for several decades now, that negativity and bias is very harmful to the Nation as a whole. I am sick and tired of their "we're more clever than you" stance when vending news as they see it.

I hold my hands up. Deep Joy back in May 2015, June 2016 and Autumn 2016 when all had a clearly smacked bum look on their faces when those results materialised.... Deep Joy indeed ..

It's what us Brits do... or, just maybe DID since June 23rd last year.

When are our oh so clever UK media going to get it through their thick skulls that there can never be a "soft" Exit from the parasitical monster that the so called European Union has evolved into? Parasites NEVER make it easy for the hosts on who they depend to break free easily. The sooner we sever that parasitical umbilical cord to the so called Union the better.

Foreign Investment and ownership of UK's infrastructure, industry, power supplies etc etc benefits City of London Types but fails miserably to appreciate that when it suits, it will be TATA for now as they asset strip and run and the rest of the Nation suffers badly.

When it suits, all will be gone. Vauxhall anyone? When was the last Ford vehicle made in the UK. They want to close down their remnant engine facility too and transit to where?... That silly woman down the road castigating the good folks of Dagenham when her Fiesta cost a small fortune to rectify hasn't got a brainwashed clue. I marked her card sharpish ... her car was not made in the UK... Who Knew? She clearly did not.

We've become the Mugs to the World and many form long queues to take advantage of mugs. That has to stop.
deebee likes this.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......

Last edited by MGJohn; 06-03-2017 at 10:49.
MGJohn is offline  
post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 11:24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Daventry (not Coventry or Dagenham!)
Car: MG3 3Style
Posts: 6,350
I think there can be a sort of soft BREXIT but it'll never be allowed to happen (whether its a good or bad idea is debatable, but anything that protects us from the impending collapse of Deutsche Bank and its subsidiary the ECB has got to be a less painful outcome). I don't quite hold the view that the journalists - I avoid the Mail, Express and Guardian but I watch a lot of TV news (insomniac that I am) - are necessarily in on a grand conspiracy, more like not clever enough, biased, ill-informed. Notice how they confuse Single Market and Free Trade though. Convenient to make a sleight of hand. You can't have free trade if you don't accept completely unrestricted freedom of movement to/from the EU they say. So what's the deal with Canada when it's at home? Why not that? Because the EU wants to punish us? Why aren't all the loved up globalists attacking the EU over this warmongering and the anti-free trade attitude to the UK when they don't seem to need to punish Canada?

I only hope a modern day equivalent of the Continental Blockade as instituted by Napoleon has the same level of success as the EU does. It was continental Europe that ended up worse off and starved then (and the same goes fro both world wars) so maybe their bullying will get its comeuppance...

The Vauxhall thing has put me in a bad mood. I can see what's coming and the excuses that will be made afterwards. You can just see Vauxhall sales continuing while production is moved elsewhere and the media won't be in a hurry to let people know about it. Happened to Ford, BMW and Pug. PSA will know it worked previously. It was a bad move business-wise to close your most profitable plant and open up a new one Linwood-style in Slovakia that would be bound to be so inefficient that it would be a lot less profitable even with a strong pound (as happened in the mid-2000's). It was followed by PSA nearly going bankrupt, but of course the banks were there to bail them out (presumably under pressure and through being underwritten) so why bother to strive to be efficient or profitable when your country will bail you out. It leaves you to indulge in petty nationalism.

Vauxhall will continue as a badge. UK plants will shut. The loss-making ones (outside the UK) won't. It'll happen if the Pound is strong or weak (and it's been up and down like a you-know-what's draws for years now). GM Europe is loss-making as it is, it will only get worse when PSA use their excuse-filled 'business acumen' to close the wrong plants. Some of us may laugh and say they got what they deserved but PSA will land on their feet as they get bailed out once again. GM will probably then buy out Honda UK and close it down. They (GM) know all about being bailed out too.

The UK public will continue to buy the cars wherever they're built. The economy will continue to grow, the income from business to the treasury will continue to shrink. The hospitals and schools will continue to be bled. Maybe we'll end up with third world regions/suburbs like the States has?
deebee likes this.
streetrover is offline  
post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 14:49 Thread Starter
Supporter
 
MGJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucestershire - Cotswold Cockney
Car: MG Montego Turbo; 620ti x3; MG ZS; MGF and MG ZT 1.8t x2; MG ZT-T x1
Posts: 21,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetrover View Post
I think there can be a sort of soft BREXIT but it'll never be allowed to happen (whether its a good or bad idea is debatable, but anything that protects us from the impending collapse of Deutsche Bank and its subsidiary the ECB has got to be a less painful outcome). I don't quite hold the view that the journalists - I avoid the Mail, Express and Guardian but I watch a lot of TV news (insomniac that I am) - are necessarily in on a grand conspiracy, more like not clever enough, biased, ill-informed. Notice how they confuse Single Market and Free Trade though. Convenient to make a sleight of hand. You can't have free trade if you don't accept completely unrestricted freedom of movement to/from the EU they say. So what's the deal with Canada when it's at home? Why not that? Because the EU wants to punish us? Why aren't all the loved up globalists attacking the EU over this warmongering and the anti-free trade attitude to the UK when they don't seem to need to punish Canada?

I only hope a modern day equivalent of the Continental Blockade as instituted by Napoleon has the same level of success as the EU does. It was continental Europe that ended up worse off and starved then (and the same goes fro both world wars) so maybe their bullying will get its comeuppance...

The Vauxhall thing has put me in a bad mood. I can see what's coming and the excuses that will be made afterwards. You can just see Vauxhall sales continuing while production is moved elsewhere and the media won't be in a hurry to let people know about it. Happened to Ford, BMW and Pug. PSA will know it worked previously. It was a bad move business-wise to close your most profitable plant and open up a new one Linwood-style in Slovakia that would be bound to be so inefficient that it would be a lot less profitable even with a strong pound (as happened in the mid-2000's). It was followed by PSA nearly going bankrupt, but of course the banks were there to bail them out (presumably under pressure and through being underwritten) so why bother to strive to be efficient or profitable when your country will bail you out. It leaves you to indulge in petty nationalism.

Vauxhall will continue as a badge. UK plants will shut. The loss-making ones (outside the UK) won't. It'll happen if the Pound is strong or weak (and it's been up and down like a you-know-what's draws for years now). GM Europe is loss-making as it is, it will only get worse when PSA use their excuse-filled 'business acumen' to close the wrong plants. Some of us may laugh and say they got what they deserved but PSA will land on their feet as they get bailed out once again. GM will probably then buy out Honda UK and close it down. They (GM) know all about being bailed out too.

The UK public will continue to buy the cars wherever they're built. The economy will continue to grow, the income from business to the treasury will continue to shrink. The hospitals and schools will continue to be bled. Maybe we'll end up with third world regions/suburbs like the States has?

Good grief! I am not alone. Sadly, I feel all your predictions will come to pass. It's what us Brits really excel at doing... Getting far too many of the important things wrong! This Nation has an excess of previous for that ... I live in hope that June 23rd last year is a reliable indicator that an increasing number of UK folks now realise all the negativity that has been happening for far too long and they now look set to do something positive about it. Yes, initially there could be mainly losers ( including why fix it UK I'm Alright Jacks and Jills remainers ) for the early years but, the more important longer term benefits for the Nation as a whole to not only survive outside that parasitical EU womb, but to thrive outside of it.

Brits can make a start by NOT buying GM product with Vauxhall badges stuck on them made just about anywhere else when the "valid" reasons for closure are found and asset stripping of UK plants is complete.

Yes, those "global" movers will still want to vend their built elsewhere product here in the UK to take advantage of fatter margins. Sadly, there will still be folks here who form queues to pay over the odds for German and other foreign built product ... It's what some Brits do! Thus they export hundreds, nay, thousands of UK careers and jobs. In the final analysis, it really is that simple.
deebee likes this.

Apparently ... in a parallel universe MGJohn drives .........A.......

B>>M>>W ....

Arrrrrggghhhhh......... ......
MGJohn is offline  
post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 18:51
Woof Woof
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nottingham
Car: TF160 Disco 3.9 XR4i 4trak Yamaha XV535
Posts: 10,740
In the 80s friends of mine went to Belgium to buy Opel Mantas, much higher spec than the local cav's. And cheaper too.
barkingdog is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MG-Rover.org Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Great foriegn cars we don't get here SLARTIBARTFAST Other Motoring Chat 39 28-11-2015 11:32
Don't know what happened, but the cars bust jacrts MG ZR / Rover 25, 200 & Streetwise 4 22-09-2014 22:55
Cars we don't like?? ronaldbegg Other Motoring Chat 86 29-01-2011 15:19

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome