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E10? Alcohol only in the glass or also in a Rover?

12K views 26 replies 9 participants last post by  Dorchester 
#1 ·
I have a 2005 Rover 25 with 1.6l engine. In Germany and France they sell at gas stations a fuel called 'E10' as substitute for Euro95. E10, being a mix of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol, is not suitable for some cars because of corrosion of the fuels system and interaction with seals. On the internet I cannot find a clear answer if E10 is suitable for Rover cars. Does anyone know?
 
#2 ·
I'm very interested as well by any information about E10 and Rover. Thanks Robert Vons to have posted the question.
 
#3 ·
Why would you even want to run on E10? It's a scam by petrol companies to sell more gas (because there is less energy per liter in E10) that costs less to produce (because agriculture is heavily subsidised)...

And like you said, there a various nefarious effects due to corrosion and solvents.

I'm not dismissing your question, if someone knows it would be great to get an answer, but this is my two cents.
 
#5 ·
I think it's just to do the best choice & the safest for the car.
Petrol octane 95 here on the continent already contains 5% ethanol.
So E10 is just 5% more.
The question is: does the difference matters a lot in term of corrosion?

Regarding the less energy in E10, I can't see any reason not to agree.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I'm resurrecting this topic because they just passed a law here in Belgium... They outlawed the classic SP95 (max 4% ethanol), so petrol stations will start selling SP95-E10...

The law comes into effect in january so pure SP95 days are c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶e̶d̶ numbered.

Does anybody here run on E10 and has done so for a long time? Any nefarious effects to the fuel lines, injectors or efficiency?

I fear that I will have to pay for the SP98 from now on :crying2:
 
#8 ·
I'm resurrecting this topic because they just passed a law here in Belgium... They outlawed the classic SP95 (max 4% ethanol), so petrol stations will start selling SP95-E10...

The law comes into effect in january so pure SP95 days are counted.

Does anybody here run on E10 and has done so for a long time? Any nefarious effects to the fuel lines, injectors or efficiency?

I fear that I will have to pay for the SP98 from now on :crying2:
Here in France all the new stations are selling 95E10 only and no longer the old 95.
There is not a so big difference with the 98 in term of price, just a slight bit more expensive. Not to worry when petrol is doing ups and downs on the market price: crumbs between cheap 98 and more expensive 95 in a whole year.

But shame that we couldn't get a precise and comprehensive technical answer regarding the implications of a drop more of Ethanol in our petrol K engines. I fear I'm gonna die stupid :sad3:
 
#9 ·
I'm resurrecting this topic once more.

I have decided to take the plunge!

Last month the French government recognized and made legal at last the first electronic control unit aimed to make any car built after 1993 tolerate any grade of ethanol incorporated in petrol, that is to accept 98, 95, 95E10 and E85 (with maximum 85% ethanol in summer, 65% in winter).
Hence now the modification is legal, which was not the case before.

So I have ordered that device, called Biomotors, made in France by a start-up based in Montpellier, South of France, since 2011.

It doesn't come very cheap (£690), but includes the fitting by a qualified and specially trained garage, plus a 3 years guarantee.

First they control 7 points in the engine to be sure the fitting will be compliant and successful, and then the car goes to the dyno.
They fit the device, and make lots of adjustments including one or several road tests and a dyno once more, to be sure the engine is working fine and nothing is damaged or altered.
The price includes as well any further intervention if necessary during the 3 years guarantee, which looks like a security for the consumer and pleads for the quality of the product and the fitting. No problem or damage was recorded since years, that's why they were officially certified by the previous French government.

The principle of the device is to adjust permanently the petrol injection timing whatever be the ethanol grade and let the engine definitely works at its best every minute with E85.
I know there are lots of those devices sold on the internet since ages, but I guess lots of them are just cheap craps for dummies.

Ask now for the difference it makes: today in France 95 is nearly £6 a gallon, and E85 is £2.60 (5ml far from home) to £3.50 a gallon!
And the petrol stations offering E85 in France is increasing more and more: 4 a week at the moment.

So that the operation costs can be paid off between 1.5 and 3 years depending upon your annual mileage, would you decide to use E85 only.

I'll let you know my experience on my remapped 25 102bhp.
 
#11 ·
The only downside is the increase of the petrol consumption: around 15%, so your full tank let you drive a bit less further.
But after all my average MPG being 45.8 along the last 6,000ml, there's a comfy margin.

The engineer I talked with when I ordered ensured me that there will be no change in the car performance, torque for example, for the ECU is keeping on fully managing the engine, the device letting only pass a little more petrol (hence the consumption) - otherwise the mix would be a tad too poor sometimes - by dynamically advancing a little the injection timing according to the needs.
Given that my very efficient remap made by @lolsteve98 (giving me a far better torque in low & medium revs) played upon that very point (timing advance) among other variables, I'm very curious to see the result.

Because I saw on some French forums that an efficient trick done to let the car freely accept E85 without any extra device was to increase the advance of the injection in a special remap. The first downside being that it will never be dynamic and adjust at once, and secondly if modified to accept the E85, you'll be in slight trouble coming back to ordinary 95, not to say a word about the low temperatures in winter that may use to impede the morning start when the engine is cold. All disadvantages that the device suppresses, so you can input any compliant petrol as you please (or as you find out) which will mix the new filling with the previous, no matter the final grade will be.

Let's cross fingers and all the rest and we shall see. Can't wait!
 
#12 ·
Here in southwestern Ontario, Canada, all grades of gasoline can have up 10% ethanol. My 1995 MGF has been using E10 gasoline for over 6 years and almost 20,000 miles. I am unaware of any issues with using E10 in my F. The F's fuel mileage averages 42 mpg. All the fuel lines are in good condition, no signs of the fuel lines deteriorating due to exposure to ethanol. And no leaks at connectors within the fuel system. If the fuel system was not compatible with E10, one would expect to find the fuel lines and gaskets or o-rings to deteriorate.
 
#13 ·
Hi @mowog73, and thanks a lot for your very enlightening return.
I'm glad it works fine with E10 for so long and thanks to your experrience I feel safer.

I filled 4 times with E10 in the past (last time last week, twice in 2015 and once in 2016) and so far nothing's wrong under the bonnet and the car is working at her best.

In France 98 & 95 are made with 5% and E10 of course with 10% ethanol.
But from now onwards when the device is installed, my aim is to keep the engine working every day with E85 (65-85%).
 
#14 ·
The Biomotors device accepting a 85% ethanol rate will be fitted on June 20th next under my 25 bonnet.
I'll let you know my first impressions ASAP, hoping to get all the figures from the garage before & after the operation.:petevick:
 
#15 ·
Ethanol kit fitted last Tuesday morning.
Tests OK before and after the job.

So yesterday I filled a bit of my tank with E85 priced at 0.599€ per litre, i.e. £0.53 per litre or £2.41 per gallon!

And there are in France around 1,000 E85 stations, one being 8km far from home.

I've just done 10km since, but so far no difference and the car is still as responsive as ever.

But it's far too early to say anything valuable, the great question being: what will be the MPG decrease, given that you need more Ethanol (less energetic - it's 85% alcohol & 15% petrol in summer) than petrol for the same distance? The guess being somewhere between 15 & 20%.

To be followed...
 
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#16 ·
Interesting stuff! Am I right that ethanol can increase corrosion in steel fuel tanks and pipes?

I ask this because my recently repatriated (2015) 1995 MG RV8 arrived with a severely corroded fuel tank to the extent that a new tank had to be fitted. I don't know what level of ethanol is allowed in Japan but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Japan is ahead of us in this fuel.
 
#17 ·
Interesting stuff! Am I right that ethanol can increase corrosion in steel fuel tanks and pipes?
That is one of the scare stories that was put around in press articles which were trying to portray E10 as some sort of product of satan - the suggestions were that steel fuel tanks, fuel lines and particularly aluminium parts in fuel pumps would be damaged.

However, E5 (5% ethanol content petrol) has been the norm for several years now, and I find it difficult to believe that increasing the ethanol content from 5% to 10% is going to suddenly create massive problems.

Similar scaremongering took place before and during the introduction of unleaded petrol, but apart from older engines (which needed a lead replacement fuel additive or modified valve seats), it proved to be largely bunkum.

Same happened again with the introduction of low sulphur fuels, but again, its usage didn't result in all the engines suddenly grinding to a halt.

The only serious drawback that I can see to increased levels of ethanol in petrol, is its lower ability to provide power, which may make its apparent cheapness an illusion if you end up using more fuel per mile as a result. But then, the price difference is purely down to the way bio-ethanol is taxed/subsidised........
 
#19 ·
Ethanol 'corrosion'

Hi all,


To throw in my comments, the metal corrosion concern around the use of ethanol is not so related to the ethanol itself, but the water it absorbs. Ethanol is highly hygroscopic and absorbs water from the air in a relatively short time. If you regularly use a car with ethanol in the fuel, the absorption of water is not a massive issue, as the 'wet' ethanol will be burned and fresh fuel will be added when you fill up again. However, if you leave ethanol in a steel tank for an extended period, it will absorb water which will start to attack the steel.


This is an excellent excuse to get out and drive more!
 
#20 ·
This is an excellent excuse to get out and drive more!
+1!

Not so much water actually in the tanks, but it's true that the car needn't to be forgotten several months in the garage.
No car is gaining to be forgotten too long, to be fair!
 
#21 ·
So far, my first impressions and assessments:

1- I've already done two E85 fuels-up. What a bliss to make 100km that cost only around £3.50! Or 100ml for £5.50 !

2- After that now in my tank the proportion of E85 is about 47%. I should add more fuels-up to be sure to have a full tank filled only with E85.

3- Nothing changed for the torque & the throttle response, even I found the pedal a bit more responsive & quick no sooner had I touched it. So no damage to my remap.

4- Accelerations very nice and smooth without any trouble at all

5- The over consumption so far is not very much improved, but at the moment it's a bit too early to be assertive and to say anything very precise (see point 2).

So far I'm a happy bunny. :petevick:
 
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#22 ·
Last fuel-up. I was nearly up to 50% of ethanol.
Not surprisingly the MPG decrease slowly.
My MPG is now 39.5. Formerly it was around 44.5 for more than a year.

But the car is as smooth and as responsive as ever.
And mind you that E85 is worth a bit less than 45% of the petrol price here!
What could be wrong? ;)

And now after the fuel-up, I'm at 60% of ethanol.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Latest news.

With nearly 60% of E85, 39.5 MPG (228ml) once more.
With 78% of E85, 38.2 MPG (321ml).
Previously with standard 95 petrol, I used to make 44.8 MPG, that is 6.6 less, i.e. 14.7%.

But above all, a smoother and nicer noise and a so sensible improvement of torque in the low revs that I feel I'm driving a diesel engine!

Now I've 82% ethanol (out of a maximum of 85%).

IMHO the best recipe: remap + ethanol + cone filter (for hot air).
I've got now another car, a better one of course! :mg_chic:
 
#24 · (Edited)
Here is my new induction kit (paid £20 on the bay) that replaces the K&N filter in the original box. The ethanol box is located on the right upper corner (EDIT: little white label) and the black cables going to the injectors are scarcely noticeable:



And closer:



It helps the engine breathing and is very useful for it provides warm air that gives a better spraying of ethanol in the injectors, hence the engine becomes more thrifty or less thirsty if you prefer!
 
#25 · (Edited)
Last small fuel-up after a tad more than 100ml: 40.5 MPG even if I've now 82% of ethanol in the tank.
How thrifty is my lovely 25!

And even more astounding to see thanks to Torque Pro that the throttle body is hardly opening at more than 25%, generally between 10 & 20% on the country roads. Largely enough to drive at 60ml per hour or nearly.
No sooner have I pushed on the pedal that the engine is pulling hard & quickly. Never ever was it so brilliant before the changes.
Obviously here is the success recipe as stated previously: remap, direct induction kit & ethanol.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Just a quick peep at my 25 performances, with remap, 83% ethanol + kit and direct induction kit.
At the same time, Torque Pro recorded:

Speed : 56 mph

Revs : 2,582 t/m

Throttle body : 26.7% (maximum recorded 30 seconds later: 43%)

Timing Advance : 25° (maximum recorded so far: 40°)

Charge : 24.7%

Lambda O2(1) : 0.7V (rich mixture - max: 0,9V)

Lambda O2(2) : 0.4V (normal mixture)

Torque : 136.75Nm (maximum recorded along the trip)


To compare with, a genuine Rover 25 1.6 109bhp maximal torque is 138Nm at 4,500 revs.

Not too bad, and I think I keep a lot more in reserve. ;)
 
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