What is the MGR websites views on me giving away remaps? - Page 2 - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #21 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 09:41
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Remember when a CD album was 13 but when we all started to burn our own we'd buy a stack of 100 and the were 8p each.
You speak for yourself! I never have burned my own, or where I have done, it has been from a one legally purchased and done only for my own use.

There is a word for what you describe - it is pirating.
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post #22 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 09:51
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Pirating and piracy gives it a glamour and romance that it really doesn't deserve.

It's theft, pure and simple.

A tin of Heinz baked beans is currently 0.75 at Sainsburys, am I allowed to disagree with the price and just steal them?
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post #23 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 10:50
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Really all the copyright stuff is bull****.
I'd advise some caution here since the forum rules cover it in detail.

TC
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post #24 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 12:21
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There are some valid points towards Shawn and some not so valid.. " A tin of beans at 75p?. no you dont steal them, you go for the cheaper option.. doesnt mean the cheaper option are a worse product.. yes copyright issues?.. not sure they would stand up in court. cos the Pro mappers have already broken the copyright law even before someone else modifies it.. Yes you can put your signature inside the map, but doesnt prove its yours and yours alone. because its not.. Unless its a stand alone EcU with a purely custom written software and map. I only know 1 person capable of this..
Mapping game is a dog eat dog world.. if you want to get into it you already know your work might get cloned or modified more. Just needs someone to read the mapped ecu and actually have the knowledge to understand what the hell is what.. I dont have the patience nor the time to find out.. thats why i did my research and tried a few mappers.. some mappers just rip off others work it seems..or gain extra knowledge on what not to do.. Like modify a vvt map in a rover 75/zt ecu..
My advise to Shawn is to do what you want but dont leave yourself wide open for attack. See all and say nawt..
Not sure id try one of your maps, cos id only trust one guy now.. and thats
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post #25 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 12:57
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copyright issues?.. not sure they would stand up in court. cos the Pro mappers have already broken the copyright law even before someone else modifies it..
Bankrobber, robs a bank.
You steal the money from the bankrobber.
The money is still stolen money at the end of the day.
'Whataboutery' is no defence I'm afraid.
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post #26 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 13:13
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Originally Posted by Perry Stalsis View Post
Bankrobber, robs a bank.
You steal the money from the bankrobber.
The money is still stolen money at the end of the day.
'Whataboutery' is no defence I'm afraid.
yes you hit the nail on the head.. you acknowledge that the remapper is the origional thief?.. If someone comes along and remaps the remap then whats the difference.?.
The pro remapper has broken the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. by initially reading the factory map.. then broken the copyright law by modifying the factory map.. so why do so many mappers start crying when an amateur starts playing with modded maps.?
Its a dog eat dog area mapping as i said earlier.... and anyone investing their house on a business choice as risky as mapping need to have a really good plan.. and in fact thinking about it.. some Amateur mapper who has not spent a penny other than spare time has the best business plan of them all..
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post #27 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 14:29
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In practical terms, Shawn can do what he likes, but not here. Copyright law is a fact of life, but we all break copyright rules all the time, but we don't do so in public. His error was in asking if he could use the forum as a vehicle for distributing whatever it is he does. Whether it's for free or for money is irrelevant. All internet forums have a Copyright rule for membership that precludes what Shawn wants to do. So, he should simply end the discussion if he intends to remain a member. If a moderator gets involved, the thread will be closed anyway.

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post #28 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 14:32
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No Keith, just no. Everybody involved is just a thief.

Apart from the copyright theft, there's also a morality issue.
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post #29 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 15:03
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Originally Posted by T-Cut View Post
In practical terms, Shawn can do what he likes, but not here. Copyright law is a fact of life, but we all break copyright rules all the time, but we don't do so in public. His error was in asking if he could use the forum as a vehicle for distributing whatever it is he does. Whether it's for free or for money is irrelevant. All internet forums have a Copyright rule for membership that precludes what Shawn wants to do. So, he should simply end the discussion if he intends to remain a member. If a moderator gets involved, the thread will be closed anyway.

TC
yep well said.. and hence the see all say nawt comment.. do what you want just keep yer gob shut about it..
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post #30 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 15:29
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It's not strictly clearcut, some tuners go above and beyond 'changing a few numbers' and actually change the way the program works, modify subroutines, even add them in blank areas of EEPROM. This will remain the developers property I'm sure (and im sure I recall one competing tuning company in distant past getting into a bit of hot water over it)

I'm also not totally convinced of a clearcut case of copyright/piracy infringement by an original tuner, afterall the remap comes off a car, goes back on the original customers ecu in a modified form, it's very private and software redistribution hasn't occured as the beneficiary is the person who bought the ecu (and as such a license to use software). Even if there is issue to be raised it's on a different level to open and free distribution of said work., and the laws have been so far very kind to people taking copies of things they are entitled to and in some cases even modifying them so im not totally convinced what a genuine tuner does is a sticking point

The discussion of this topic can get very complex very fast, therefore I've always kept it simple - basically 'is what I'm offering my own work'.

If no then you shouldn't.

It's also worth noting an increasing number of remap companies hold patents in tech improvements used on what gets written to the car.

Quote:
Remaps are the same,its changing some numbers
You think this because what you've seen is limited to exactly this. I change numbers, what numbers and by how much? Fancy doing some math?

I did a Leon yesterday with very decent antituning protection, unlocked the ecu manually and the tuning procedure was a very involved process.

Anyway, opinions will always be divided - though I am surprised it seems a debatable subject when publishing someone elses work is so blatantly wrong.
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Last edited by Dakta; 11-02-2017 at 15:41.
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post #31 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 16:17
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Here's a new one, postman brought me an ECU to fix (typical bad flash with clone (ramloader reset after flash erase) - then can't recover by OBD as the hardcopy is gone).

Powered it up on the lab supply, the suckers trying to draw 2amps, I've no idea what the corruption has done but it's killed an injector driver for sure, can cook an egg on it - or I could, it's just tripped the overcurrent protection


Time for a coffee then we'll look at options
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post #32 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 16:30
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Originally Posted by keith8000_0 View Post
.. you acknowledge that the remapper is the origional thief?.. If someone comes along and remaps the remap then whats the difference.?.l..
Forgive me if I am missing something here, but from re-reading the original post I have the impression that the proposal was to make existing remaps available for free, with just a '1' added to the numbers. We don't seem to be looking at a remap of a remap; it appears to be making an existing remap available to all for free, and thereby circumventing the legitimate remappers business. It has been apparent right from the start that Shawn has an axe to grind and seems to have some issue over traders legitimately charging for remaps and ecu/scu reprogramming and wishes to see them put out of business. This seems to me to be just another step on that quest.

Whatever way you look at it, it is piracy/theft/illegal.
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post #33 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 17:26
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Dakta and MITC, thank you both for phrasing more eloquently, than I was able to, I was starting to doubt my own morals for a moment.
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post #34 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 17:48
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Quote:
I was starting to doubt my own morals for a moment.
No worries, I doubt the human race most days!

However I think this threads perhaps at risk of over-reading the question a bit, so let's re-cap and summarise 'can i take a professional remap file written by a third party and make it available for free on this forum?'



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post #35 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 18:13
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so let's re-cap and summarise 'can i take a professional remap file written by a third party and make it available for free on this forum?'
If the third party, wrote wrote the file, is agreeable that MAY be ok, as long as it doesn't contravene any rules regarding traders.
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post #36 of 83 (permalink) Old 11-02-2017, 18:27
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If they agree! (how likely is that when the item in question is offered as a service - which seems to be the case here)

Quote:
Time for a coffee then we'll look at options
After a bit more probing, CPU is dead, no bus activity and drawing far too much current itself. So speaking from a viability POV that's pretty much that for the old ecu. Just want to empthasise that the horror stories can sometimes happen because to some person right now its happening.



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post #37 of 83 (permalink) Old 13-02-2017, 12:01 Thread Starter
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Over the weekend I have been to the renowned "REMAPPING UNIVERSITY"
I'm sure you have all heard of this establishment.
I now have a diploma!
You can call me Dr Shawn.
I'm going to pay trading fees.
My remaps since they are the best will be 1000.
They must be the best they are the most expensive!
In fact they carry a guarantee! if you can find one more expensive,tell me and I'll increase my prices to match.

The above is silly but all of that would be OK by the current standards.
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post #38 of 83 (permalink) Old 13-02-2017, 14:24
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post #39 of 83 (permalink) Old 13-02-2017, 16:54
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Quote:
The above is silly but all of that would be OK by the current standards.
It is silly



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post #40 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 07:23 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by COLVERT View Post
Shawn.


Did you know about the two different diesel ECU's ???


Would you be able to work your system on both of them ??


Be handy to know,--
It turns out I don't need to work it out I have already done it.
I've done MK1's and MK2's.
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