What is the MGR websites views on me giving away remaps? - Page 3 - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #41 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 08:39
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Originally Posted by E_T_V View Post
You need to think carefully about this (I'm not saying don't do it), but if you provide the files you are responsible (within certain limitations) for their effects they have on other peoples cars.

If you brick someones ECU etc then legally they would have a good case to sue you for the cost of putting it right. You can put whatever disclaimers you like it doesn't change the liability you have for providing products that are fit for purpose under UK/EU law.

Just beware thats all.
Usually any firmware changes to hardware is done at the users own risk because they have to install the map themselves. He would only be liable if he didn't mention that and/or if he installed the maps himself.

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Also adding 1 to each number isn't going to wash if someone did challenge you for copyright (not that I think they would).
This is valid but it depends on how general the map is. It may be hard to prove it originates from a particular tuner.

However simply changing the index on the tune doesn't get around copyright as the map itself is the IP. Tuners obviously don't like people posting maps etc but again, you have to find out whether the tuning of the ECU is proprietary and licensed or whether it is simply open source due to the manufacturer no longer existing. The IP technically belongs to the ECU manufacturer and with custom ECUs often they will either license out the rights to use their ECU software or you will have the right to do whatever you want and face the consequences of a blown up engine. Manufacturers won't generally want to take responsibility if their software blows up your engine so won't usually restrict the sharing of maps under the assumption you take your own risks for using their software to begin with.

Your biggest legal hurdle is making sure A: you don't make a profit off sharing and B: the tuner doesn't have some licensed usage of the tuning software.

That's down to you to figure out as i'm not a legal expert but I know roughly how the sharing of software generally works. If they're just tuning your car, the work done is protected but the map itself may just be that, a map that anyone can upload an share as the IP may not be used under license. Much like how if you create a video in Sony Vegas, Sony don't OWN the video you make, just the software you use to make it.

Last edited by Stargatemunky; 14-02-2017 at 11:58.
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post #42 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 09:02
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Originally Posted by Perry Stalsis View Post
It's theft, pure and simple.

A tin of Heinz baked beans is currently 0.75 at Sainsburys, am I allowed to disagree with the price and just steal them?
Well technically they use the same manufacturing process as the cheap cans so buying a knock off is still perfectly legal. Also beans are a physical resource.

It's an intractable position because often there is a paywall preventing access to digital tools that people either want to use for one single task or is needed for casual non-profit use and is priced at a level similar to how cocaine is priced. If a can of baked beans costs 1500, you are not ethically obligated to pay for that just to make some beans on toast as you might just want to try baked beans to see if you like them.

Generally theft involves taking property that someone worked towards. The invention of digital distribution creates the recouping of costs of the workload needed to create and maintain the software.

Equally though if you allow it, you cannot prevent people from simply stealing the IP just to avoid paying so there is balance of how you would prosecute people.

The legality in the UK falls down to it not being illegal to own the software, but it is illegal to distribute it, especially for profit.

When you're talking about ECU maps however you are talking about modding. You are modding EXISTING software for custom usage. In general it is not stealing to use someone else's modded map just so you can modify your own map. The cost is going to be for modding it correctly with the dyno and software etc.

It would be Rover who would have the right to sue if they decided they didn't want people modifying their hardware. That IS something defensible because it's their software and hardware which they would license out if they didn't allow tuning.

It's not much different from customising a computer user interface, once you pay for that fixed design you own that design and simply copying it won't be a copyright issue unless you are using pirated software. I don't really see how you can prevent legally people from sharing maps, as they aren't claiming it's their work to begin with or making a profit off that claim.

If you openly say "this is for my car, use at your own risk" then that's really its. You can't legally stop people from sharing them, however mass distribution may fall under an impact on their profit margins.

You have to ask though, if the maps are generic to use on almost any car what the value of the IP is to begin with, which leads back to, you're paying for the dyno equipment, and expertise and nothing else.

I don't personally see the legal argument for claiming the map itself is of ANY IP value to the seller. All they are doing is recouping costs for the software licensing they bought to modify the tune. If someone has their own software at home that's their business and is between the software developers, not the modders.

The same argument applies to Torque Pro and ODB2 readers. Is it unethical to use those for ECU readouts over a 500 T4 unit?

Last edited by Stargatemunky; 14-02-2017 at 09:18.
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post #43 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 10:23
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I think this argument is getting too tangled up in the minutiae. If the proposal were for rewriting the ecu map based on the knowledge and experience of the person doing the remapping - well that is how most remappers work, and charge for sharing their knowledge and experience.

My impression with this thread is that the proposal is to take an existing remap done by someone else, and change a few numbers in it to give the appearance of changing its identity, and then making it freely available to anyone. To my mind, a similar procedure to fitting false number plates to a stolen car.

In the end, I think what we are looking at here is another step in Shawns crusade to put out of business all the legitimate remappers and providers of diagnostic/programming software services; all because he has a bee in his bonnet about those people making a monetary charge for such services when, for some warped reason, he seems to think that he is entitled to recieve such services for free.

'Fraid that's not how the real world works.
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post #44 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 11:00
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Yeah i've overcomplicated my argument for sake of clarity.

But essentially you as a user should not be paying for just a map. An ECU map is just a chunk of information like a windows 7 instruction manual, it's not something of any inherent value.

You pay money to have the ECU tuned correctly to your car specifications and requirements.

If someone wants to share that map that's fine by me, but it's not something you should EVER pay for... EVER. You're paying for someone not blow up your engine. You're paying for their equipment and ability to make it work correctly on your vehicle.

By downloading one yourself you are taking responsibility for you own engine and car's welfare.
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post #45 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 11:02 Thread Starter
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I have just found an eBay advert for remaps for 25. I have only just seen this one and its being offered by a garage at Filey (its not its near York) They have a dyno, do services, MOT's.
If they can do it with proper business overheads???????????

If your using TOAF you can do this!
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post #46 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 11:40
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The problem with these debates is you really need to know the field to discuss the field.

Shawn's just posted an example of someone charging pence for maps, the tuning world knows all about this individual and how 'they work' but I didn't come on here to spout crap about people.

All I can is analogise - we all know someone willing to plaster your bathroom for beer. However in a free market you can make your price - just don't expect other tuners to go bust even if they seem a lot more expensive.

This does not go to any length in making a case for publishing other peoples work though.

Quote:
In the end, I think what we are looking at here is another step in Shawns crusade to put out of business all the legitimate remappers and providers of diagnostic/programming software services; all because he has a bee in his bonnet about those people making a monetary charge for such services when, for some warped reason, he seems to think that he is entitled to recieve such services for free.
I don't wish to comment on individuals, but this has summarised the thread exactly for what it is. There is not a single professional software developer working an honest living in this industry whilst charging pence for files. Those that try are generally tinting windows etc as well out of self-induced necessity.

Tuners should be tuners, not mechanics. Tuning properly is a full time specialised field, you don't have the time to be bleeding brakes.



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post #47 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 11:58 Thread Starter
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I think they are charging for the 15minutes of work that it takes to remap,100 an hour an you don't have to get out of your chair.
I'd imagine ALL the other tuners have a problem with the price.
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post #48 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 12:01
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If it's not an individual proving their map that they paid for, for free to others, then it's some backyard boy trying to make a quick buck.

Either it's done by a professional for or it's provided as a courtesy for other people to take their own risks with them.

There is no in-between as far as i'm concerned.
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post #49 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 12:55
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Thing is Shawn, if business really is that easy, why aren't you rich?
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post #50 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 12:58 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Perry Stalsis View Post
Thing is Shawn, if business really is that easy, why aren't you rich?
How do you know I'm not?
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post #51 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 13:46
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Shawn asked:
What is the MGR website's view on me giving away remaps?

The obvious answer to contact the management and ask.

TC
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post #52 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 13:55 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T-Cut View Post
Shawn asked:
What is the MGR website's view on me giving away remaps?

The obvious answer to contact the management and ask.

TC
I got my answer here:-

What is the MGR websites views on me giving away remaps?
The rest has just been playful banter

Website views up and a bit of buzz.
I just hope I've encouraged people to have a go themselves.
That's what it should be all about,having a go and helping others.
I know I'm annoying,but I'm usually right.
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post #53 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 17:04
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Quote:
I know I'm annoying,but I'm usually right
You're not annoying, but the points you do make don't seem to be accurate either and the justifications come across nonsensical to those that work in the fields you make your points about at times.

The main thing isn't changing your opinion but ensuring the good information is there to counter the bad.

Most people using genuine tools would have a subscription/update cost in the thousands of pounds per year, which is one key reason why genuine 20 tuners don't exist. I'm not getting into a debate on the subject but that point alone is just one bullet-to-the-head reason why remaps don't come for pence except from questionable sources (those being mostly made up of untested, made without development processes (guessed changes) and stolen tunes)



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post #54 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 18:59 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dakta View Post
You're not annoying, but the points you do make don't seem to be accurate either and the justifications come across nonsensical to those that work in the fields you make your points about at times.

The main thing isn't changing your opinion but ensuring the good information is there to counter the bad.

Most people using genuine tools would have a subscription/update cost in the thousands of pounds per year, which is one key reason why genuine 20 tuners don't exist. I'm not getting into a debate on the subject but that point alone is just one bullet-to-the-head reason why remaps don't come for pence except from questionable sources (those being mostly made up of untested, made without development processes (guessed changes) and stolen tunes)
See now I think your trying to belittle me and something I posted earlier and deleted because your a mate of Keith's I'm going to phrase in questions not statements though I already know the answers.
Tuning isn't your main job is it?
Is your website a registered Business?
Genuine 30 tuners paying tax and registered as a business doing this for a living do exist. I know of two and have had dealings with one of them.
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post #55 of 83 (permalink) Old 14-02-2017, 19:15
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Belittle you? not really I have no bone to pick with most people, but your agenda is nothing short of inaccurate at times and you make posts deliberately so to put forward inaccuracies about an industry and i don't mind correcting it.

I don't generally answer personal questions, but just to put your mind at ease:

1) Yes it is my 'day' job per se. As well as tuning customers cars through the day I also consult with two other tuning workshops throughout the day. As an example of a typical week I spent most of the backend of last week at their premises. These get monthly invoices.


2) What is a registered business? Do you mean with companies house?

I am self employed, so I undertake and fill out a tax return like every other self employed 'business' (legally it isn't a business in it's own right). I own a limited company though which is a placeholder for when we invest further - I have two people wanting to help me develop the business so the long term plan is to develop into that.

What your referring to by means of a 'registered website' - god only knows. What's a 'registered' website?




3) I do have another job, which is done nights. This is basically to compound a self employed income as we have had some losses in the family recently and I have dependants, and it seemed like a sensible thing to do - especially as tuning doesn't make me rich despite what I charge.

I have heard rumours that the department I run solo on a nights (which is normally undertaken by a team during the day) has actually increased productivity quite dramatically (used to be a day only operation) - i'm secretly hankering for a pay rise and I might even one day quit the tuning and leave the ebay sellers to squabble over a 25 once I get my degree (see below) but we'll have to see on that front I was going to stop tuning when I left my role as a dyno operator a few years back but people kept ringing me and I still had the gear...hence the above.

The above isn't secret knowledge.

I'm also doing an engineering degree at the same time, on a part time basis, oh and I really don't like parsnips. I've done some CAD work my uncles land surveying company and I once trimmed someones hedge and they paid me.

We're going back a long way though!To cut it short though, you can try and scrutinise my ship, or my past or whatever, all you'll find is someone who has worked hard and thought a tough battle and used genuine means to push forward.

One final thing mate
Quote:
Genuine 30 tuners paying tax and registered as a business doing this for a living do exist.
From your post above, and in this particular quote, it seems you use the process of paying tax as a registered business as some kind of indicator of whats legitimate tuning and what isn't.

Whilst paying tax and being a registered business (where appropriate for your business model for the latter) are important components of being a genuine business, this is not my definition of being a genuine tuner, and I also know plenty of people who do a tax return who provide very illegitimate services. In fact I know a few small limited companies who I've witnessed guilty of the same. Recently on a closed facebook group a big company that franchised a lot of garages got outed for the use and attempted re-selling of clone Chinese gear.

So, unless you have a point to make about the size of my 'venture' all the above is unimportant and a distraction from the insinuation that somehow taking another tuners commercial work and publishing it is somehow quantifiable as 'okay to do'.
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post #56 of 83 (permalink) Old 15-02-2017, 07:08 Thread Starter
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Exclamation

Wow
Overnight the garage selling the 25 remap has pulled its listing and started a new account on eBay.
They are now charging 250-300 for a mobile service. So they will now came and sit in your car and put the same map in and its 10x more expensive. Sounds familiar.
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post #57 of 83 (permalink) Old 16-02-2017, 08:13
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It sounds like the difference between solvency and insolvency for a business.

The key to any business is the hourly rate and you're just focusing on one tiny corner of the business.

Let's say the average '25' tuner works a 40 hour week and does two maps a day, that's a gross income of 250 per week.

250 divided by 40 gives us an hourly rate of 6.25.

It's not unreasonable to throw in fuel, class 2 business vehicle insurance and road fund licence, shall we just guess a number and call it 20 a day?

Our gross income for said mobile genius, has now dropped to 150 per week or an hourly rate of 3.75 an hour.

Even at four maps a day, the hourly rate still only gets to 7.50, the same rate that the national minimum wage is going to be in April 2017.

Shelf stackers at ALDI currently receive 7.74 and also holidays etc.

Now let's start to factor in tools, sick days, bad debts, actually, let's just stop right here.

I would genuinely welcome the opportunity to have sight of your business plan.
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post #58 of 83 (permalink) Old 16-02-2017, 08:18 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Perry Stalsis View Post
It sounds like the difference between solvency and insolvency for a business.

The key to any business is the hourly rate and you're just focusing on one tiny corner of the business.

Let's say the average '25' tuner works a 40 hour week and does two maps a day, that's a gross income of 250 per week.

250 divided by 40 gives us an hourly rate of 6.25.

It's not unreasonable to throw in fuel, class 2 business vehicle insurance and road fund licence, shall we just guess a number and call it 20 a day?

Our gross income for said mobile genius, has now dropped to 150 per week or an hourly rate of 3.75 an hour.

Even at four maps a day, the hourly rate still only gets to 7.50, the same rate that the national minimum wage is going to be in April 2017.

Shelf stackers at ALDI currently receive 7.74 and also holidays etc.

Now let's start to factor in tools, sick days, bad debts, actually, let's just stop right here.

I would genuinely welcome the opportunity to have sight of your business plan.
My business plan is to sit on my arse in retirement and give stuff away that should now be FREE as these cars are so old and cheap.
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post #59 of 83 (permalink) Old 16-02-2017, 08:25
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My business plan is to sit on my arse in retirement and give stuff away that should now be FREE as these cars are so old and cheap.
You're confusing philanthropy and business then, in that case
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post #60 of 83 (permalink) Old 16-02-2017, 08:26 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Perry Stalsis View Post
You're confusing philanthropy and business then, in that case
No your confusing it.

Its cost me 8 to be able to offer remaps for FREE.
That's 8 for a cable to be able to read an ECM,copy it,modify it,and put it back.
Meanwhile people are charging hundreds for this.
It's wrong!
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