Mad idea #354 - Modification of TF radiator. - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 20:54 Thread Starter
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Mad idea #354 - Modification of TF radiator.

Ignoring the obvious change in weight distribution and just damn silliness of the idea, has anyone ever used the side vents with scoops to act as the main radiators for the TF.

I was pondering what would happen if you stuck two RoverMini rads in next to the two inlet side vents and then piped it around that way with the engine bay fan pushing the air out of the rear boot vent.

It would make the system much shorter, with less temp variance whilst at the same time requiring less coolant.

I imagine if the Rover guys ever thought of doing that they chose against it because the design never drew air in that way.

Anyone know of any CFM figure for the scoops? (i have read the usual articles on the guy who initially tested the scoop idea).

PS: I'm not going to try this... not with any car I care about.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 21:03
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I would stock up on Head Gaskets if I were you...

Good luck trying to work out the circuit to feed and return from both sides

Radiator surface area is one thing, sufficient airflow through it or them is quite another...
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Last edited by IanMc; 24-02-2017 at 11:58.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 21:28
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I think there would be an issue with radiator size as in would probably need to be smaller than heater matrix to fit......Although, there is the fact the standard cooling system is over efficient which is one of the main reasons why they fitted the PRT thermostat system rather than the thermostat up by the water pump, so in theory; if you could get rads to fit in the engine bay, there is a possibility it could work
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 21:32 Thread Starter
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 21:43
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hehe, there is always a chance....it just all depends on the want, availability and cost.... you can fit a water cooling systems for your computer, its just all the pipework, fitting and cost which is prohibitive for most people.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 22:14 Thread Starter
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A VERY rough measurement of the surface area of all entry points finds that:

Front lower grill = ~69 square inches
Side scoops = ~54 square inches.

Now I'll assume that's about right given there's the top scoop and the license plate causing extra space + blockages so we'll assume even for now.

So either I will need a thicker radiator (which the mini ones are) or just more efficient air somehow.

Might do some proper measurements tomorrow to see how this might actually work in reality.

Hey you never know. I might run the intake inlet from the front of the car for kicks!
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 22:15
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Originally Posted by dert View Post
hehe, there is always a chance....it just all depends on the want, availability and cost.... you can fit a water cooling systems for your computer, its just all the pipework, fitting and cost which is prohibitive for most people.
For computers the most extreme is dipping the machine in oil. I know they do it in investment banks for high frequency trading where they overclock the CPUs to the maximum, dip it in oil and when the machine dies, usually within a day or two they throw it away and they replace it with a new one. Maximum speed is key. But here is the idea, oil cooled car, no water!
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 23-02-2017, 22:20 Thread Starter
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Well you could run water/methanol 50/50, if you don't mind the car catching fire in a leak.

That's the closest you could get in terms of viscosity.

I'd rather see if I can get basic physical engineering to work before resorting to chemical engineering.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 11:39
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Could always fit a rad behind the T-bar and always drive with the hood down
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 17:41
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Fundamental problem, the side inlets are to let fresh air into the engine bay to help cooling, if you heat that air on the way in it isn't going to help with cooling.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 18:07
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I'm just puzzled by the whole concept.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 19:29
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and there is more...

The surface area of the swap, might be close (54 V 69) but the air flow and pressure are completely different.

somewhere online is a schematic of the mgf airflow.. i will look for it unless someone has it to show... the most still air is where the air intake pipe sits.. down near the rear bumper..

even a slowly moving f will push more air through the rad at the front than the side air vents can...

The other problem of putting the rad at the rear.. is that coolant has weight.. and if you remove that from the front. the front gets lighter.. the car is balanced taking the weight of the rad, the coolant, and the pipes that connect to it... weigh them filled with water, and see how much weight you will take off the front of the car.. and how much therefore you will move to the rear..

And thats before you put things in the boot..

so the car will become unbalanced, you will skate and aquaplane with less weight on the front wheels. thats why even the weight of the spare wheel is taken into consideration..

a better idea is to leave the rad where it is but change how the cooling system works.. ie do away with the thermostat, and consider using temperature sensing flow valves... that are normally open.. ie fail safe.. but are closed dependent on temperature sensing at various points around the engine and engine bay and rad.. ive considered that.. i think it might need up to five valves.. in the hot line pipe to the rad. under the passenger floor.. ie the incoming pipe to the rad has a junction that splits into smaller pipes each with a valve in... that are closed dependent on temperature measurement sensors, placed elsewhere.. and then join again with the pipe to the rad.. probably where the union is now..

so... when its very cold.. they will all close when the ignition turns on... and as the engine warms up, they will open in turn.. until they are all open ( all turned off )

such a design means one can have flow through the rad at all times since even if one or more valves fail or the temperature sensors fail... the valves fail open.. its fail safe.. turned off, they are open.

Of course one needs to consider what happens if a temperature sensor fails reading low temp and keeps a valve shut.. but five all at once is unlikely.. and if one stops and turns off the ignition, the valves are open... one could even have a manual overide, and turn them all off. ( open )


it would be less effort to do that...... try taking out the thermostat for example , and one will see that with constant flow through the rad, the engine wont reach operating temperature... the coolant is being cooled to much..

with some constant flow through the rad, it wont clog up with sediment.. that a plus in itself..

here is page three, of the topic i ventured here..

Using temperature based flow control of coolant

you can read the whole thing. i explored rev sensing and temperature control - two things operating at the same time..

but my circumstances changed .. i still think is a good idea, but i havent built it yet...

Last edited by Incony; 24-02-2017 at 20:13.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 24-02-2017, 21:51 Thread Starter
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and there is more...

even a slowly moving f will push more air through the rad at the front than the side air vents can...

The other problem of putting the rad at the rear.. is that coolant has weight.. and if you remove that from the front. the front gets lighter.. the car is balanced taking the weight of the rad, the coolant, and the pipes that connect to it... weigh them filled with water, and see how much weight you will take off the front of the car.. and how much therefore you will move to the rear..
This isn't intended to be an invested idea.

I already said we can ignore weight distribution (stick a sack of potatoes in the front) and use scoops to get the required air.

Engine bay temps can largely be ignored for two reasons. One cold air intake from under the car, and also every other K-series has the radiators in front of the engine so it would be irrelevant to the function of the engine.

I have also considered an under body scoop but i'm just thinking of the LEAST silly idea that might actually work.

The TF has much better venting to the engine bay than my ZS in terms of access ports to let heat out. Again... just add more fans.

Heat travels upwards and having a top mounted vent like the TF makes a massive difference if the air can flow upwards instead of naturally pool.


I've worked out the rough surface area though. We'd probably need a bigger radiator than the mini one as they only meet about 1/4 of the total require surface area.

Maybe we could get away with it as the TF radiator only really uses the bottom half anyway but that's still only 50%.

Either way if I ever have a spare 250 i'll buy a cheap breaking MGF and try it out to see if the car can run without exploding.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 06:33
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i'm just thinking of the LEAST silly idea that might actually work.
That would be how the car left the production line then

What do you have to gain from trying this idea?

Of course, its your money at the end of the day - good luck.

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 07:04
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just for one moment lets say both side scoops added together still gave the same surface area for air to flow through the two rads, I don’t think that is the issue, I thing airflow will be the issue,

I’ve no proof but I just don’t think say driving at 50mph you’re going the get the same volume of are passing through the two side scoops as the rad would be getting if the rad was at the front of the car

Now I know on F1 cars they have the coolant/oil coolers in the side pods but they are forward facing and have fins to divert air in the right direction, our side scoops are more for show than anything practical apart from the engine bay fan using one scoop and the air filter using the other

one way I could see the side scoops working as you mention is if you fit a fan on each side governed by coolant temp, I’m sure they’ll be on the moment the engine gets to running temperature till you stop the car

only my opinions based on nothing
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 08:34 Thread Starter
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What do you have to gain from trying this idea?
Knowing whether it could be done or not.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 08:50
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Knowing whether it could be done or not.
Whether it could be done, or whether it will work?

My advice is keep your money in your pocket, but as I said before it is your money.

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 09:59
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<<<snip>>>Engine bay temps can largely be ignored for two reasons. One cold air intake from under the car, and also every other K-series has the radiators in front of the engine so it would be irrelevant to the function of the engine.

<<<snip>>>

The TF has much better venting to the engine bay than my ZS in terms of access ports to let heat out. Again... just add more fans.

Heat travels upwards and having a top mounted vent like the TF makes a massive difference if the air can flow upwards instead of naturally pool.


<<<snip>>>
The MGF engine bay runs far hotter than front engine cars, there is less room around the engine and less areas for air to flow in and out.

And the aerodynamics don't encourage airflow either.
The boot lid vents will only allow heat to flow out when stationary, when moving airflow over the car stops air flowing up through the vents.

When moving air is forced through the front mounted radiator and then out and under the car, with a front mounted engine this air moves through the engine bay and out under the car. With a rear engine car the air flows under the car and most will flow out of the back, very little flows into the engine bay.

A little air flows in through the side vents but when moving most will flow down the side of the car, scoops help but not a great deal.

It is a nice idea but I don't think it will work on a small car like the F.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 18:43
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Could be made to work. Several mid engined cars have the radiators at the back, no reason it won't work on an F/TF.
You'd need to look at air outlets for the engine bay just as much, if not more than the air intakes, and that'd probably mean losing boot space.
Venting the radiator through the bonnet is probably of greater benefit, especially for the work involved than putting radiators at the back. Even more so if you fully duct it.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 19:05
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and the bag of potatoes you replace the rad with , will slow you down, since you've added weight, and they wont cook.. so no baked potatoes for you.

" i know, lets replace the rad with something that slows the car down, crowds the engine bay, unbalances the car and requires extra fans and body mods.."

interesting concept.
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