Mad idea #354 - Modification of TF radiator. - Page 2 - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 25-02-2017, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Talkingcars View Post
The MGF engine bay runs far hotter than front engine cars, there is less room around the engine and less areas for air to flow in and out.

And the aerodynamics don't encourage airflow either.
The boot lid vents will only allow heat to flow out when stationary, when moving airflow over the car stops air flowing up through the vents.

When moving air is forced through the front mounted radiator and then out and under the car, with a front mounted engine this air moves through the engine bay and out under the car. With a rear engine car the air flows under the car and most will flow out of the back, very little flows into the engine bay.

A little air flows in through the side vents but when moving most will flow down the side of the car, scoops help but not a great deal.

It is a nice idea but I don't think it will work on a small car like the F.
I agree.

"The boot lid vents will only allow heat to flow out when stationary, when moving airflow over the car stops air flowing up through the vents."

because once the car moves, the air flow under and above it.. negates the exchange of the two from bottom to top...

mgf placed a temperature sensor on the drivers side boot for a reason.. its gets hot there..

it gets even hotter where the exhaust and the main head outflow pipes are... i know that because i moved the boot sensor to the nearside.. close to those pipes at the rear wheel arch.. it turns on the fan sooner... and thats because its hot there, hotter than the underside of the bootlid.

so think on that , if you crowd that space... to get rid of the heat would need more fans, add weight, noise and unpredictable results...What happens if an added fan fails? you need to incorporate a method that makes the system fail safe... or it will fail and your cooked..

Last edited by Incony; 25-02-2017 at 19:23.
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 16:57 Thread Starter
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Well I was thinking about a possible small under lip to force air from under the car and up behind the engine.

With regards to actual weight... meh. I wasn't too worried about the weight distribution to begin with. The radiator weighs like 2 kilos and the water is going to be about 4-5.

The majority of weight is on the transfer pipes under the car. so really all you are doing is lightening the car. With no radiator on the front you can just decrease the front lift by blocking the inlet similar to how most people modify the front radiator to increase downforce.

Overall I don't see much problem with sticking a few radiators in the back and then losing a whole bunch of water. I mean simply by having a fibre glass boot would probably shift the weight enough to compensate.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 17:42
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I'd say the radiator weighs a lot more than that - I would estimate 5 Kg without water/coolant.

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 19:09
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Isn't a rearwards weight distribution generally a good thing. The standard 45:55 weight distribution is good, but the Elise I would expect to be more rearwards. Suitable work to the front end if you no longer have to supply and exhaust the radiator would allow down force at the front - work you can do with the radiator at the front anyway.

Has anyone utilised the ducting in the bootlid to create an exhaust for the engine bay?
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 19:12
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Well I was thinking about a possible small under lip to force air from under the car and up behind the engine.
That would make for err, interesting handling?
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 19:49
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Could always fit a splitter to the front to get downforce, no need for a bag of potatoes then, could always fit a bank of small bank of 12v waterproof fans (like computer case size) along the rear boot vent to extract hot air from the engine bay also, it shouldn't be that hard to force air into the engine bay....just cut some additional vent holes in the rear panels...suzuki had ram air systems on their air cooled bikes its a similar principle....remember, vw beetles were air cooled
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 20:40
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....remember, vw beetles were air cooled
designed completely differently, each cylinder was separate from the others, covered in cooling fins and there was a massive fan pulling air through.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 20:50
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well, stargatemonkey, with only a few mods you could fit an additional radiator into the "hot" always circuit... using an integral oil cooler rad with a fan... or a motorbike rad and fan combo... and see if it changes the warm up time of the hot circuit... and therefore what any benefit permanently moving or changing the coolant design might have... you could trigger the fan on and off using a temp sensor you fit.. or see what happens if it uses the ecu turn on


the hot circuit doesnt have a rad.. its always hot... but it can use the cabin heater if its turned on.. and the cabin heater has a fan...

i know, if i turn on the cabin heater on a hot day and the blower on full speed.. it makes no difference to the temp reading... that heater matrix ,even with its fan, cant lower the engine temp.. it needs the rad to do that..

so.. put in another rad.. and make the fan trip on earlier... maybe... put that rad and fan where you want... then come back and tell us that you can improve the cooling system with a rear fitted rad and fan.. and therefore dont need a front fitted rad anymore..

be the first... break new ground.. make your mark..
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 21:36 Thread Starter
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I'd say the radiator weighs a lot more than that - I would estimate 5 Kg without water/coolant.
The OEM one for the ZS weights about 2kilos IF THAT.

In fact brb.. gonna weight the old TF one now.

Weighs in at 3.5kg
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 22:15
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remember also stargatemonkey that anything you attach to engine , in the engine bay, must be able to move with the engine, since its a flexible mounting.. to deal with torque flex... and anything you attach to the engine bay bodywork, must not be in the way of that, if it cant move.. Since the engine torque rock is more pronounced at the top.. and why the down pipes have a flexible joint.
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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 27-02-2017, 22:23 Thread Starter
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There is nothing that cannot be over-engineered to work... nothing.
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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 28-02-2017, 19:54
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i am looking at flow meters this mo stargatemonkey, since one in the hot circuit and one in the rad return pipe would tell me two things.. the typical flow level in the hot circuit before and after the thermostat opens.. and the typical flow rate through the return pipe from the rad, when the thermostat starts tp open...

it would be interesting to know what the difference between the two circuits actually is... is there any bias? does coolant choose the easiest route or is it balanced?

my prime interest is devising a simple method of knowing the rad flow is outside a window limit.. its likely that if the rad or thermostat are not open properly.. the hot circuit will take preference.... ie there is a difference in flow between the two that can be measured using flow meters.

that knowledge could tell you what the thermostat is doing... and related, the flow through the rad..

knowing what those are in normal operation.. will tell you when they are not.

a simple experiment of what i mean.. connect your garden hose to a tap... at the outlet... give it three pipes.. one small two large.. turn on the tap... thats your car engine pump pumping... close off one large exit... and the small one... what happens?

all the flow is through one big exit.

now open the small exit... what happens? the flow through the big exit changes, its less, and now you have two streams of water.. one fast, at high pressure and low quanity... and one at low pressure but higher quantity..


now slowly open the third... what happens? now you have two lower pressure high quantity outputs... and one not so high pressure lower quantity outputs in equilibrium...

close the small exit... what happens?

open the small exit, and partially close one big exit... what happens?

a flow meter can measure those differences and tell you what it can see...

if one is in the return pipe from the rad... it will see the thermostat open.. and providing the rad is clear.. you will get a known increasing rate as it opens to full rate.. if not.. either the thermostat isnt opening fully or the rad is blocked..

if you open the heater valve...( small pipe) you will see the two flow meters register a drop.. in theory if the pipes are all clear... both the meters should see the same rate.. it is balanced.. but if one still sits low. and the other is high... something is wrong.. i would be concerned if i dont see the hot circuit drop ... or the cold circuit rise... and the two balance...

of course it could be that the hot circuit is always favoured... its got the least resistance, it dont care about the thermostat or the rad or even the heater... the flow meters will tell you that too.
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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 28-02-2017, 21:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkingcars View Post
That would make for err, interesting handling?
Was done by Roger Parker in the early 2000s - see here MGF air vent . I did it myself. No effect on handling. In the end I took it off due to lack of ground clearance.
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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 18:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargatemunky View Post
Well I was thinking about a possible small under lip to force air from under the car and up behind the engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkingcars View Post
That would make for err, interesting handling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Foulger View Post
Was done by Roger Parker in the early 2000s - see here MGF air vent . I did it myself. No effect on handling. In the end I took it off due to lack of ground clearance.

Maybe I misunderstood the P/O but I thought he was talking about behind the engine while yours and Roger Parkers is at the front. Looking at the one in the picture I see a problem in that a lot of the rammed air will be forced out of the side losing some of its force while causing turbulence around the inside of the rear wheels.

With more work I can see that this might work.
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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 19:53
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no one found the mgf air flow map yet?
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