General Motors in talks to sell Vauxhall and Opel marques to Peugeot - Page 2 - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 19:58
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Originally Posted by MGJohn View Post
So when all is gone, will we import Opels with Vauxhall badges on them?
We already do - Ellesmere Port only makes one model (Astra), mainly for the UK and Ireland nowadays, as a lot of the LHD models for the rest of Europe are now built in Poland. The rest of the Opel/Vauxhall range are brought in to the UK from elsewhere so, as always, the Brexit thing is a total red herring.

The UK is Opel/Vauxhalls biggest market. The size (and importance) of the UK to the sales and possible future profitability of Opel/Vauxhall suggest that sensible management wouldn't be likely to remove production from the UK. However, their past performance has already indicated that the French management of PSA may not be sensible.

As with any takeover in an overcapacity industry, the main reason for it is to consolidate and remove a competitor, and with Opel being the victim of the takeover, it is likely that Opel will bear a heavier burden of any reduction than Peugeot or Citroen will. Logic would dictate that the German plants would be most vulnerable, but of course the UK workforce would cost less in redundancy pay.

Having had a couple of Peugeots in the family over the last few years, and having been impressed with their very good reliability (and no rust at all even at over 15 years old), PSA might actually succeed in improving Opel build quality.
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 13:36
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MGJohn, Ryton is no longer a desert as it was ten years ago, the site is now quite busy, it's an industrial park. The only problem is that most of the site is devoted to parcel delivery firms, although I think Jaguar have a small building there for Special Operations. It's called Prologis Park.



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Running true to form, as I type this I have 24/7/365 News in the background. All are linking this to the UK's decision to sever the EU connection permanently. No doubt closure of Longbridge would be blamed on UK's Exit from the EU if the media thought they could get away with it! They are obviously so much more clever than us Plebs and need to remind us of that at every opportunity.

Foreign Investment? When it suits all will be gone. All the Japanese manufacturers here have threatened that years ago.

Apparently, 80% of the Vauxhall product goes to the EU. I wonder what percentage of that 80% goes to the UK market which currently is a member of the UK. Stats ...

Before any calls of "Fake News", the UK media also stress a massive 75% of the Cars' manufacturing content is bought in from abroad. Lot of good that does the UK. Mainly bought in from guess where!

Why oh why can't the UK manufacture that 75% stuff either in house, or elsewhere in the UK thus creating more jobs and securing existing ones, not exporting them. We still have the skills so it is not yet too late.

I drove past Ryton ten years ago. A sad desert. Just needed a few Tumble Weeds to complete the scenario.

Matter of time before both VX plants are shut down and asset stripped. Probably sooner rather than stated timeline later as soon as "clever" accounting reveals massively failing economy of both plants.

So when all is gone, will we import Opels with Vauxhall badges on them? So that folks buying Vauxhalls can feel comfortable that buying one provided manufacturing jobs and careers for Brits.

Bet they do.

Build 'em where cheapest, sell 'em where there are the fattest margins. Guess where.

TATA for now.
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 17:15
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MGJohn, Ryton is no longer a desert as it was ten years ago, the site is now quite busy, it's an industrial park. The only problem is that most of the site is devoted to parcel delivery firms, although I think Jaguar have a small building there for Special Operations. It's called Prologis Park.
Funny you mention that. Small boy me back in the early 1950s used to visit Aunts and Uncles who live in a big house on the edge of the Aerodrome in Brockworth on the outskirts of Gloucester. They worked for "The GAC". The Gloster Aircraft Company.

Visits were a delight as newly outshopped Javelins could be seen warming up those jet turbines... cue scorched earth ... prior to taking off on their maiden flight. I was about ten at the time and with my younger brother, we entered the assembly hangers when nobody was around. Climbed up on the trestles and I nearly got my arm stock in the leading edge of a Javelin's wing. Cannon apertures ?? Imagine being able to do something like that today.

Apart from names like Hurricane Way and pubs and buildings named after aircraft, little remains of what was once a large aerodrome. High density housing with little garden space and massive Industrial Units. It is now a massive rush hour "rat run" for the road that traverses the flat area which was once the aerodrome. Many of the Industrial Units are also Courier Company bases including Royal Mail and Parcel Force.

Another memory was crawling into the large concrete defence "Pill Boxes" to see hundreds of Butterflies attached to the ceiling deep in hibernation. Mostly Peacock Butterflies and a few Small Tortoiseshells. My other prime hobby-interest is Natural History. So that aerodrome fulfilled both my transport and natural history enthusiasm from an early age.

Sadly, nothing lasts forever particularly in the UK.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 21:23
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Thumbs down There's more .. Vauxhall content.

Over on other Car enthusiast web sites I visit, this Vauxhall sale is being discussed at length. One poster on what I still regard as one of the most anti~British Car sites ( by anti-British I mean MGs and Rovers ) has a view I have favoured for decades. It's what us BRITs do NOT do. Here's and extract of his post :~

=========================================

Having worked for both Ford and Honda I blame the British public. If like the Germans, Italians, Americans and even French they brought only product made in their own Country we would still have a car business and it would safeguard those jobs. Unfortunately the vast majority are now more interested in shiny gadgets and X - factor and the latest episode of Gogglebox. Most still believe Dagenham makes cars and the Ford transit is British!. Having travelled the world working for Automotive manufacturers I found the British to be the least patriotic and loyal customers.

A quote from when I was working in Detroit for Ford " daddy I love that new Toyota I think I will get one"
His response " over my dead body, you will buy a Ford. Ford paid our bills, gave us the money for our home, put you through college and you want to buy a Toyota........get out you are not my daughter".

Buy bye Vauxhall. Bonjour French rubbish. Still we have Holdens!

=========================================

I could have written that. Indeed I have written similar stuff on-line many times.

I once admitted that I prefer to buy British cars. By that I mean the products of Abingdon, Cowley and Longbridge which all have served me well over many decades.

Cue some anonymous oxygen thieving pc-riddled on-line low life accusing me of being racist for preferring to buy home product. It's the economy, careers and jobs you clueless halfwit.

Show me someone quick with the knee-jerk reactions to play the racist card at any opportunity and I'll show you someone almost certainly a covert racist! Those pc-riddled "knee-jerks" are on the increase. Which means that with the passing of time, such ubiquitous and too frequent unjustified accusations will evolve to become devoid of salient value.

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 21:44
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Originally Posted by MGJohn View Post
Over on other Car enthusiast web sites I visit, this Vauxhall sale is being discussed at length. One poster on what I still regard as one of the most anti~British Car sites ( by anti-British I mean MGs and Rovers ) has a view I have favoured for decades. It's what us BRITs do NOT do. Here's and extract of his post :~

=========================================

Having worked for both Ford and Honda I blame the British public. If like the Germans, Italians, Americans and even French they brought only product made in their own Country we would still have a car business and it would safeguard those jobs. Unfortunately the vast majority are now more interested in shiny gadgets and X - factor and the latest episode of Gogglebox. Most still believe Dagenham makes cars and the Ford transit is British!. Having travelled the world working for Automotive manufacturers I found the British to be the least patriotic and loyal customers.

A quote from when I was working in Detroit for Ford " daddy I love that new Toyota I think I will get one"
His response " over my dead body, you will buy a Ford. Ford paid our bills, gave us the money for our home, put you through college and you want to buy a Toyota........get out you are not my daughter".

Buy bye Vauxhall. Bonjour French rubbish. Still we have Holdens!

=========================================

I could have written that. Indeed I have written similar stuff on-line many times.

I once admitted that I prefer to buy British cars. By that I mean the products of Abingdon, Cowley and Longbridge which all have served me well over many decades.

Cue some anonymous oxygen thieving pc-riddled on-line low life accusing me of being racist for preferring to buy home product. It's the economy, careers and jobs you clueless halfwit.

Show me someone quick with the knee-jerk reactions to play the racist card at any opportunity and I'll show you someone almost certainly a covert racist! Those pc-riddled "knee-jerks" are on the increase. Which means that with the passing of time, such ubiquitous and too frequent unjustified accusations will evolve to become devoid of salient value.
When I have been in France and read the local papers the car adverts were interesting insofar as they were headed Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Foreign which indicated how important they considered imports. We would have been well advised to follow their lead rather than being suckered in to buying volume manufactured vehicles pretending to be premium vehicles at premium prices.
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 04:56
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I worked for a local company first owned by Germans and after that by Franch owners. In both cases, since company cars are expendable, they gradualy changed whole fleet with cars manufactured in their countries. And more to that you could get some benefits if you would like to buy new car manufactured in their country. That is how they support their economy.
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 07:59
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Not that 99% of the UK population will care; Ellesmere Port plant made better made cars than any other factory in the gm/Vaux/Opel group.

Proved by DPV ( defects per vehicle) of vehicles coming off the end of the production line and also warranty claims ( percentage by individual plant) caused by bad manufacturing being lower than any other plant in Europe.

Although I no longer work their, a very stark reality is that when bidding took place to build the latest Astra, the polish plant (Gliwice) could build it for roughly 20% less cost than most other plants. It was only when import/export tax/quota's/warranty repair costs were included in the equation that other plants stood a chance.

It really annoys me that the majority of British people think a German made car ( bmw/merc etc) is of a higher quality than a British made car even though they pay a considerable higher sum for it in the first place.

Itís against the basis of common thought, i.e.: a 50p loaf of bread from cheapo supermarket won't be as tasty as a £1.50 loaf in our local bakers, but they complain a £15k car should be the same quality as a £30k car.

Sorry to rant but as mentioned in some excellent posts above, itís the majority of people living in this country who won't back our country where itís needed (with spending £ís) on British goods that is the foundation for our economic downfall. Although to be fair it wasn't that long ago that a lot of british made goods were not to the quality they should of been.

PS: 2 minutes ago I ordered a cheap Chinese phone charger for £1.50p so I guess Iím as guilty as anyone else, I do try to British where itís practical though.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 09:13
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Before any calls of "Fake News", the UK media also stress a massive 75% of the Cars' manufacturing content is bought in from abroad. Lot of good that does the UK. Mainly bought in from guess where!

Why oh why can't the UK manufacture that 75% stuff either in house, or elsewhere in the UK thus creating more jobs and securing existing ones, not exporting them. We still have the skills so it is not yet too late.
Because it's not our decision. It's the decision of people in other countries (the U.S., France, Germany). We can only influence it by voting with our feet - we can buy rival products. But we don't/won't.

GM Europe sells far more cars in the UK than it assembles, and it seems those cars have a very high import content. The decision to do this, to keep doing this, and do this in the future when the tariffs (may) appear is the problem here.

If PSA was a good global business it would take the plunge where GM Europe didn't. It would trim the plentiful waste of the PSA factories to increase profitability, and ensure the losses aren't too big when the current range loses its freshness. It would slash the Opel plants in Germany and trim elsewhere to make them profitable. It would be mindful not to replace GM IP and practices with PSA ones if it means worse reliability, durability etc. It would increase locally made content and as the UK is I think the largest single market within the EU for GM cars produce more parts and cars in the UK than they sell here. I.e. centralise (for economies of scale) to the UK. Indeed, why aren't all EU-based car manufacturers doing this?

Or they could be stupid/cowardly/insular and close the uber-efficient and profitable UK factories because its easier to do so.

If they are brave and go after the Opel bit it'll mean a lot of industrial action in Germany especially, but someone has to bite the bullet because sooner or later there'll be no more UK factories to close because non-UK ones get protection or continental nationalism drives decisions.


Quote:
Build 'em where cheapest, sell 'em where there are the fattest margins. Guess where.
I don't think it's necessarily is cheaper to build them abroad. Certainly not in Germany and France where most of the EU car production is and where the plants and numbers of workers will survive.

As it is, if you buy a Vauxhall it's most likely non-UK assembled and from non-UK parts and if it's UK assembled it's from non-UK parts, so maybe if they close the factories it won't make much difference as the damage has been done. But if PSA expect greater profitability after they've done it they can forget it, even if the great British public still continue to buy the 'British' Vauxhalls.
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 10:44
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Thumbs down

It is encouraging to read these replies on this thread.

Not just those we entrust the Nation's longer term well being, the sooner those who believe they know best get it though their thick skulls that they do not the better the outlook for this once great manufacturing Nation. Like GM's Vauxhall and all the other Trojan Horse foreign owned Industry and Car Manufacturers based here, when it suits they will be gone moving production elsewhere based on economic decisions.

A man I once greatly admired has become typical of those who think they know best. Make that two. Heseltine and Blair. I'm already on record here and elsewhere in accusing Heseltine of being shot away where his judgement and stance on the UK severing the parasitical umbilical cord to the EU is concerned. Apparently, I am in good company. Our PM T.May's recent actions has confirmed the way I saw him and awarded him the honour of being sacked and he is no longer an advisor to the Government. Tony Blair likewise. Two huge disappointments cushioned against the harshness their decisions cause for the rest of us. They're alright Jacks ... and Jills... the later included the interests of balance in the now seriously shot away pc-riddled UK.

Theresa May has a massive task ahead of her. Far more demanding than that faced by our previous female PM, Margaret Thatcher.

As always, rolling 24/7 TV News on in the background pre-Budget. Get this, the UK Nation's current debt is ...it's shown as TOTAL GOVT DEBT but, who will have to pick up the tab for that ... all of us, not the Govt.

£1,717,585,244,030 = TOTAL GOVT DEBT ... Get the calculators out. How much is that for each of the Nation's what, 65,000,000 folks. Although I suspect the figure is actually higher than that as I rarely trust "official statistics" which are often presented to mislead. A lifetime's observations have taught me that.

EXPORTING JOBS :~ It's one thing we do really well. We excel at it in fact.

Talking to two long standing friends recently, both told me they have exercised their rights of choice and so bought nice new cars not manufactured or even assembled in the UK. German and Japanese in fact. Nice cars. Been in both. Then sometime later, they tell me that they are really concerned that their now grown up children are having difficulty finding a decent job, let alone careers.

This sort of thing is widespread in the UK. I live in the hope than just maybe, one day the penny will drop for all of them.

It's the ECONOMY you dummies....

P.S. Worked on my MG ZT-T yesterday for a couple of leisurely hours. White Van man contractor working on a property nearby came over and remarked on the cars. He bemoaned the fact that the nation allowed the massively asset rich former Rover Group to fall into alien control with the predictable asset stripping outcome. It's what we do. Just maybe since June 23rd last year, it's what we did. One lives in hope.

Borrowing and growth.

One thing that really puzzles me. That rolling 24/7 TV news now telling me UK's economy is strong and in fact stronger than for many years. In my simple mind, how can that be true with that massive and still increasing National ( not Govt. ) Debt still firmly in mind and hanging over everyone's head. Looks like we've borrowed a "strong" economy rather that actually "earned" it! Doesn't equate. Ask our German "Friends" on the European mainland. They get it, we don't.

I feel really sorry for those poor struggling Germans. Struggling under the heavy weights of massive Trade Surpluses on the way to their Banks.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 22:25
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Being from the Wirral myself it is well known up here that the Vauxhall
plant builds the Astra and in my opinion is a British car, as has already
been mentioned the Ellesmere Port plant makes the best versions of the
Astra and has the least amount of faults.
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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-03-2017, 19:47
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Yes. There has been a constant cycle of rumours about the Vauxhall brand being dropped over the years and none have come to pass. The brand is simply too strong to be in jeopardy.
so was singer sunbeam .hillman.
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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-03-2017, 19:53
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Because it's not our decision. It's the decision of people in other countries (the U.S., France, Germany). We can only influence it by voting with our feet - we can buy rival products. But we don't/won't.

GM Europe sells far more cars in the UK than it assembles, and it seems those cars have a very high import content. The decision to do this, to keep doing this, and do this in the future when the tariffs (may) appear is the problem here.

If PSA was a good global business it would take the plunge where GM Europe didn't. It would trim the plentiful waste of the PSA factories to increase profitability, and ensure the losses aren't too big when the current range loses its freshness. It would slash the Opel plants in Germany and trim elsewhere to make them profitable. It would be mindful not to replace GM IP and practices with PSA ones if it means worse reliability, durability etc. It would increase locally made content and as the UK is I think the largest single market within the EU for GM cars produce more parts and cars in the UK than they sell here. I.e. centralise (for economies of scale) to the UK. Indeed, why aren't all EU-based car manufacturers doing this?

Or they could be stupid/cowardly/insular and close the uber-efficient and profitable UK factories because its easier to do so.

If they are brave and go after the Opel bit it'll mean a lot of industrial action in Germany especially, but someone has to bite the bullet because sooner or later there'll be no more UK factories to close because non-UK ones get protection or continental nationalism drives decisions.




I don't think it's necessarily is cheaper to build them abroad. Certainly not in Germany and France where most of the EU car production is and where the plants and numbers of workers will survive.

As it is, if you buy a Vauxhall it's most likely non-UK assembled and from non-UK parts and if it's UK assembled it's from non-UK parts, so maybe if they close the factories it won't make much difference as the damage has been done. But if PSA expect greater profitability after they've done it they can forget it, even if the great British public still continue to buy the 'British' Vauxhalls.
as a nation we know its cheapr to buy overseas cars boats planes But is it a we have to pay people who could make those things DOLE money at £100 a week,
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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-03-2017, 13:34
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...EXPORTING JOBS :~ It's one thing we do really well. We excel at it in fact.

Talking to two long standing friends recently, both told me they have exercised their rights of choice and so bought nice new cars not manufactured or even assembled in the UK. German and Japanese in fact. Nice cars. Been in both. Then sometime later, they tell me that they are really concerned that their now grown up children are having difficulty finding a decent job, let alone careers.

This sort of thing is widespread in the UK. I live in the hope than just maybe, one day the penny will drop for all of them.

It's the ECONOMY you dummies....

P.S. Worked on my MG ZT-T yesterday for a couple of leisurely hours. White Van man contractor working on a property nearby came over and remarked on the cars. He bemoaned the fact that the nation allowed the massively asset rich former Rover Group to fall into alien control with the predictable asset stripping outcome. It's what we do. Just maybe since June 23rd last year, it's what we did. One lives in hope.

Borrowing and growth.

One thing that really puzzles me. That rolling 24/7 TV news now telling me UK's economy is strong and in fact stronger than for many years. In my simple mind, how can that be true with that massive and still increasing National ( not Govt. ) Debt still firmly in mind and hanging over everyone's head. Looks like we've borrowed a "strong" economy rather that actually "earned" it! Doesn't equate. Ask our German "Friends" on the European mainland. They get it, we don't.

I feel really sorry for those poor struggling Germans. Struggling under the heavy weights of massive Trade Surpluses on the way to their Banks.
this piece about buying car that are built overseas when you have a lot of money as with this the money does not drop down to your children but a german or jappanies child,

Last edited by Roverlike; 14-03-2017 at 17:12.
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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-03-2017, 16:28
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Glyn, please edit your post to include this at the start before "EXPORTING JOBS"

[QUOTE=MGJohn]

Your reply is easily overlooked otherwise.

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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 13-03-2017, 20:31
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Originally Posted by Glyn Scothern View Post
so was singer sunbeam .hillman.
Were any of these brands the second-biggest in the country back in the day? I think not.
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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 13-03-2017, 22:02 Thread Starter
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Whilst we can criticise people for buying foreign cars, I doubt that many high-end British car manufacturers like Jaguar, Lotus, Bentley, Rolls-Royce would survive if it were not for overseas sales.
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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 13-03-2017, 23:20
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Whilst we can criticise people for buying foreign cars, I doubt that many high-end British car manufacturers like Jaguar, Lotus, Bentley, Rolls-Royce would survive if it were not for overseas sales.
High-end "British".

Not British owned or controlled though. None of those you mention.

When it suits, all will be gone.

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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 15-03-2017, 19:58
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Whilst we can criticise people for buying foreign cars, I doubt that many high-end British car manufacturers like Jaguar, Lotus, Bentley, Rolls-Royce would survive if it were not for overseas sales.
The criticism is over how many are buying foreign cars, not on simply doing it. None of those UK brands depend on major shares of foreign markets, nor would the mainstream UK-branded and produced cars if they existed.
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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 17-03-2017, 19:35 Thread Starter
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The criticism is over how many are buying foreign cars, not on simply doing it. None of those UK brands depend on major shares of foreign markets, nor would the mainstream UK-branded and produced cars if they existed.
All the brands I cited depend on overseas markets.
The top markets for Rolls-Royce are:
1. USA
2. Middle East
3. China
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 17-03-2017, 19:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSi View Post
All the brands I cited depend on overseas markets.
The top markets for Rolls-Royce are:
1. USA
2. Middle East
3. China
Wot! No EU Countries, just rest of the world....? Now there's a turn up for the books! Who knew?

Bring on the Referendum, I'm voting O-U-T!...


We need to fly the the Flag ... and buy and drive it!

...

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