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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 14-09-2012, 15:29
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Originally Posted by Roverlike View Post
...
Nevertheless, what I did when I needed to give mechanism - mechanism completely taken out, but window was fixed in place - shut - with wooden parts put in the door that are firmly holds it in place, and you can not lower it down, but also it will not go down as wood holds it.
That sounds good - I have some plastic wedges and anti-slip mat (rubbery) which would probably do that job well.

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Also I am interested to hear your thoughts about the window switch-pack!
OK, well the first thing that struck me was that people were saying that a short-circuit ("short") caused the pack to catch fire, but the fuse didn't blow in time. This is unlikely, as that's the job of a fuse: in an overcurrent situation to blow before the cables get hot enough to catch fire. It's much more likely to be overheating for a different reason.

Looking at the 2nd-from-last picture in message 8 of this thread (that shows the fixed contacts without the copper moving contacts), this is obviously two centre-off changeover switches, so that in the off position no contacts are made, in the forward or backward position contact is made on that side between the fixed contacts and each fulcrum (pivot point).

I noticed that the top-left and bottom right contacts were clean, with indication of a decent-sized contact-area of each, and above the bottom-right contact there's a "flare" of clean area with a slight covering of dirt either side. This suggests that there has been an arc on these two contacts, presumably as they separate. This is a Good Thing as long as it's brief and doesn't get out of control, as it cleans the dirt from the contact area and around it (actually it vapourises it, as it's extremely hot).

Now look at the other two contacts: covered and surrounded by dirt! Hardly any contact area visible on the top-right one, where there's barely a pin-hole through the dirt. It's unlikely that dirt is deposited only in opposite corners, so it must have arrived but then gone again.

The fulcrums are asymmetrical - closer to one contact than the other and due to this the contacts make/break at different times, the furthest one would separate first, so the separation arc would form there, cleaning that contact and then breaking the circuit so the other contact would separate "dead", with no current flowing, so there's no arc there to clean the contacts and the dirt can accumulate.

As the dirt reduces the contact area, it increases the resistance and causes reduced total current flow but higher current-density at the contact point, so heating the contacts. The heat has to go somewhere, and copper is a good conductor of heat so it will go down the cable, and may start melting the insulation or the plastic block around the contact. Depending on what the dirt contains, in extreme conditions it may heat up enough for it to catch fire.

As the total current flow is reduced, it may not be enough to trip the "Auto" solenoid to release the switch when the window reaches fully open, which means the motor would remain energised but stalled, so the current is flowing and heating the contacts for much longer than a normal open/close cycle (only applies to opening the driver's window, obviously).

So, assuming this is something like correct, it means that cleaning the contacts periodically (every 5 years, perhaps?) is something that any 600 owner should consider. And if any drink has been spilled down there, it should be done sooner rather than later, as sticky liquid will hold dirt particles very well, accelerating their accumulation. And if the switch sticks in the "Auto" position, un-click it yourself!

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it! :-)

Cheers,

Howard
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 14-09-2012, 15:40
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This is nice theory, and I can find many reasonable things to justify it. Thank you for this Howard.

Anyhow, cleaning of dirt is definetly something I need to do, too.

Regarding dirt and fire, I always remember what happend at underground train/metro in London and wooden escalator stairs cover with dirt and cigarette thrown away...
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 16-09-2012, 14:36
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This is nice theory, and I can find many reasonable things to justify it. Thank you for this Howard.
Well, I was completely wrong! I've taken mine apart, and watching it work I see the copper moving contacts are held against the contacts that are close to the fulcrum when the switch is in the Off position, so as you operate the switch, one stays as it is (presumably making the negative contact to one side of the motor) and the other one rocks, breaking contact at the "close" end and then making it at the "far" end, presumably making the positive contact with the other side of the motor. So the "clean" contacts in the photo I mentioned are only ever made and broken with no current flowing, and the "dirty" ones make and break the live circuit, so that's where the arcing will take place, and presumably that's what's causing the dirt accumulation - but I can't think where it comes from!

On my car these "dirty" contacts had some black deposits, but nowhere near as bad as the ones in the photo - really only around the contact point (on the underside of the moving contacts, too). Easy to wipe off, and I'm going to treat them with Caig "Deoxit" which it designed to clean contacts and prevent them getting dirty as quickly in future.

But I now have a different problem: on reassembling the driver's window switch, it no longer clicks in to the "Auto" position - it stops short. So I presume I've reassembled it wrongly, but I can't see how (I've tried twice, and there don't seem to be any options). Anyone know about this?

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Regarding dirt and fire, I always remember what happend at underground train/metro in London and wooden escalator stairs cover with dirt and cigarette thrown away...
Ah, you're talking about the 1987 King's Cross fire - I was there, and if I hadn't stopped to phone a friend before I left work, I would have been there at just the wrong time - as it happened the Victoria Line train I was on announced that it wouldn't be stopping at King's Cross, so I got off, and smelled smoke drifting down the tunnel, so I went to the surface and walked. When I got there, there was thick white smoke billowing from all the entrances, and I was surprised to see firefighters going into them without breathing apparatus. There was no feeling of panic or any sign that it was anything more than a minor fire (no background music to give you a clue!) and it wasn't until I got home and heard on the news that people had died (they said two, initially) that I realised the scale of the disaster. I'll be forever grateful that I stopped to make that phone call!

Anyway, sorry for the off-topic digression - back to the window!

I've taken the winding mechanism out, and found that the axle for the broken wheel is just pushed through the arm and peened-over, so I had to drill it out (the hole is 6mm in case anyone else has to do this) and I need to make up a new one, somehow. The part that the wheel revolves around is 8mm diameter, but the inside bore of the wheel is tapered out from 8mm, presumably to allow some "wobble" - there's a spring washer to bring it back square when it's not pulled out of place. I don't think I'll try to replicate this, but use a parallel 8mm bore on my new wheel.

The shaft I have to make needs a "head" to keep the wheel on, then an 8mm straight section to hold the wheel, then a step down to 6mm to go through the hole, then a thread onto which I can put a locknut. Now, where can I get an M6 die on a Sunday? :-)

Cheers,
Howard
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 16-09-2012, 14:50
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But I now have a different problem: on reassembling the driver's window switch, it no longer clicks in to the "Auto" position - it stops short. So I presume I've reassembled it wrongly, but I can't see how (I've tried twice, and there don't seem to be any options). Anyone know about this?
This switch have three positions. off, on and continuous on. So you can not activate third - continuous on? If so I had this problem with switch too, so I started looking for a replacement. But at some point of time it started working for no reason. I still do not know why stopped, and why it started again.

Point is I will have to take mine apart and clean it and inspect it...
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 16-09-2012, 15:20
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I've taken the winding mechanism out, and found that the axle for the broken wheel is just pushed through the arm and peened-over, so I had to drill it out (the hole is 6mm in case anyone else has to do this) and I need to make up a new one, somehow. The part that the wheel revolves around is 8mm diameter, but the inside bore of the wheel is tapered out from 8mm, presumably to allow some "wobble" - there's a spring washer to bring it back square when it's not pulled out of place. I don't think I'll try to replicate this, but use a parallel 8mm bore on my new wheel.

The shaft I have to make needs a "head" to keep the wheel on, then an 8mm straight section to hold the wheel, then a step down to 6mm to go through the hole, then a thread onto which I can put a locknut. Now, where can I get an M6 die on a Sunday? :-)

Cheers,
Howard

Hi
I have done both front regs on my windows, both were bent like bananas from the force of the motors, (they'd been disconnected when I bought it)

So...that rivet thngy holding the plastic wheels on I couldnt drill out as my metal-bits were blunt so..out came angle grinder, ground the flat side till it fell off.... this obviously leaves that hole

First off I went and bought a hand powered pop riveter gun for a fiver with many assorted sized rivets included..the original plan was to drill two ten pence pieces and use them as washers...however, one half of one the plastic broken wheels was in me pocket when I happened to be in the hardware shop, "Wilkinsons"...

I found the nuts/bolts section and immediately saw bags of washers...with a small center hole as opposed to a typical sized washers hole, which matched the broken plastic wheel in size but obviously not thickness...

well I just thought Id use 2 together

So riveted 2 washers on but then found 2 was too thick with the rivet to slide back in the runner....so....drilled out rivets, then riveted just the one on, slid in runner, reassembled, worked perfect.

I left the door card off for a few days to be sure the fix was permanent...

Month later....bloody window dropped again...grrr

Opened up the internals and saw that the rivet had its head rubbed off from being on the inside of the runner....ggrrr again

So, got small flat headed bolt and small nuts to fit.. (just make sure the heads of the bolts are minimal in thickness)

Simply bolted on the washers, and bingo, never had a prob since

Now if you want - your in luck as Ive had my card off for a while now - I can photo the bolts and washers in situ?

If you get back to me before its dark today can go do it for you

Last edited by rov618i; 16-09-2012 at 16:05.
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 16-09-2012, 15:44
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Here you go

Use a washer with small centre diameter like the far right one in this image: http://www.honeycrown.co.uk/images/3washers.gif

Now dont worry about rebuilding the shafts thickness as it was..it will work just FINE with a 'fully tightened' bolt so long as, obviously, the head of the bolt is wider than the hole in the washer!!! So the head of the bolt holds the washer on the inside, and the nut, on the outside as per my pic.

Use thick grease once done to lube the runners

NOTE: with the card off and the regs being tested in the door, with new fitted washers it sounds a bit like its scraping...you will not hear this with door card on at all so dont worry, also once you fitted washer/bolt you will test the clearance just by running it in the runner by working the scissors before reassembly, so trust that if it moves freely on the test, but you hear scrapes on refitting...its normal and no need to scratch your head or worry, just ensure the bolt head is as thin as poss as said

Heres mine; click for bigger!





No need for dies...or worrying about tapers....a regular straight bolt and nut and a washer

simples!

Last edited by rov618i; 16-09-2012 at 16:52.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 16-09-2012, 20:50 Thread Starter
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But I now have a different problem: on reassembling the driver's window switch, it no longer clicks in to the "Auto" position - it stops short. So I presume I've reassembled it wrongly, but I can't see how (I've tried twice, and there don't seem to be any options). Anyone know about this?
When putting the switch back together the 'u' shapped plastic slide (ringed in pic) has to be positions correctly or it wont work propally, cant remember the how it goes together. It took me several attempts to get it to work.

Derek
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 17-09-2012, 09:41
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When putting the switch back together the 'u' shapped plastic slide (ringed in pic) has to be positions correctly or it wont work propally, cant remember the how it goes together. It took me several attempts to get it to work.

Derek
Ah, I hadn't noticed that was something that moved - I'll have a go at that when I've got the winding mechanism finished and back in place (see next message) - Thanks!

Cheers, Howard
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 17-09-2012, 10:47
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Rov618i,

Thanks for the tips, but I really wanted to use the plastic wheel that I'd half-made already (still need to do the bore and the protruding hub) so I got a stainless-steel clevis pin and went to a friend's house - he has a decent engineering workshop in his garage. Leaving an 8mm section to take the wheel (the same as the original) I turned down the rest to 6mm, to fit through the hole, then another friend who is a much better engineer than I, died it (using a tap is tapping, so using a die must be dieing!) to give an M6 thread. I then filed a couple of flats on the head so it can be held while the nut is done up. Result:

I realise this is probably overkill, but since the original wasn't up to the job I want the replacement to be better (I don't want to have to do this again!). I know I should have made the shoulder more of a right-angle than a curve, but I didn't have the necessary lathe tool, and I don't think it will matter in this case.

So now I just have to finish turning the wheel, and put it all back together. Thanks to Roverlike for the hint about wedging the window in the closed position - I did so using a couple of rubber door-wedges (1 a pair from ASDA!), and because the gap without the door card in place is huge, I packed them with some plastic spacers used in building.

The one thing I did notice is that the force needed to slide the window into place is much higher than I was expecting. I did try spraying with silicone spray, but it was still very stiff. The outer lip at the bottom of the window feels really rough - I was expecting it to be like a windscreen wiper, but it feels more like sandpaper! Anything I can do about this?

Cheers,
Howard
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 17-09-2012, 11:03
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Rov618i,


The one thing I did notice is that the force needed to slide the window into place is much higher than I was expecting. I did try spraying with silicone spray, but it was still very stiff. The outer lip at the bottom of the window feels really rough - I was expecting it to be like a windscreen wiper, but it feels more like sandpaper! Anything I can do about this?

Cheers,
Howard
Thanks for the thanks! Clearly you have skills and equipment beyond my nut and bolt fix. Which I actually learned from others here!! Are you sure you will use a plastic wheel again? Metal wont break but then I guess you have sourced a very tough plastic...

On all or maybe 'most' aged cars, the rubbers in the channels perish or shrink/get hard to a degree, hence the oft mentioned use of silicone spray

Mine are the same....as no doubt everyone elses. To do the pro thing will be to replace with new!

But I used the blunt end of a toothbrush and ran it inside all rubbers I could....trying to forced more space...I noticed dust and crud had built up in places and cleaned as best I could...silicone sprayed all internal runner rubber with a tube that come with the spray to ensure I was getting 'inside' the rubbers

One thing to note, those regulator motors are as strong as hell, thats no doubt one of the reasons my regs (and others too) were 'really' twisted out of shape...so if the motor can bend the regs, it can lift a stiff feeling window!

Have you connected the regulator without the glass in the door, to check it actually moves?

And are you taking the glass out or just leaving it wedged till you reassemble? I always take mine out and give it a good clean along the bottom & edges, which is always the dirtiest part as you cant see it from outside when washing the car

Taking it out just means dipping the front of the glass down and lifting it out then when putting back in you can be sure its actually in the channels

If its not in both side channels properly that may be another reason its stiff

Cheers
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 17-09-2012, 11:12
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The outer lip at the bottom of the window feels really rough - I was expecting it to be like a windscreen wiper, but it feels more like sandpaper! Anything I can do about this?
More silicone in the spray, sort of grease rather than spray, or replacement of the part?
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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 19-09-2012, 12:15
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Smile

It's all back in, and the window is winding up and down beautifully (for the first time in ages). So fingers crossed, it's Job Done!

I was a bit worried that the protruding thread on my stub-axle would foul the other arms as they pass each other, but there seems to be plenty of space and it's not a problem.

I did try to clean the runners, but it's tricky to get to some parts of them (the top of the front one, for example) with hands and arms the size of mine. I used a toothbrush-handle as suggested, and also used the toothbrush itself and another stiff bristle-brush. Quite a bit of dust was removed. I then used "SP-90 Maximum Silicone" spray liberally, but it doesn't have a guide-tube so it's a bit point-and-hope! For the outside bottom-of-window seal, which was rough as I said, I used a paint scraper and scraped all across at a shallow angle several times and that reduced the roughness a lot.

Getting the window bolts through the keyholes on the runner was quite tricky - working through the hole at the front is a real challenge - the bolt insisted on hanging on its little flange rather than going all the way through, but ten minutes' fiddling got it done in the end.

I also cleaned and used "Deoxit" on the switch contacts, and I did get the "Auto" function to work again - getting the little white side-prong on the rocker into the gap in the sliding piece (on the side nearest the middle of the switch unit) was the answer - the slide needs to be positioned with the gap slightly forward of the copper rocking contact as the rocker-switch is pressed down to refit.

When I get time I'll post the last photos showing my made-up wheel (made from Delrin, which is apparently quite strong, and more flexible than nylon, so less likely to break - and I made it "solid" rather than with the ribs and gaps of the original).

Cheers,
Howard
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 19-09-2012, 16:30
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Good Job!

Will look forward to the pics!

Yeh those lower window bolts and getting it on the regulator are tricky, I usually have someone hold the window in place while I do it, so if you did it all single handed then hats off to you! Just lube weekly from the top and it should be a permanent fix!

A lot of motor factor shops sell the silicone spray and tube as one item, its how I bought mine. 6 seems a lot but...time and effort to place window back in runners if you dont lube... is the bigger cost

Satisfying isn't it - to have the windows working as they should knowing you took it on yourself!!
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 11:01
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Unhappy

ARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

The window worked for for a while, and then on getting home after a shopping trip I went to put the window up and the front jammed and the rear kept going - I managed to stop before it got too far (rear top edge perhaps half an inch out of the groove) but I don't know if it's done any damage - I haven't had the heart yet to take the door card off to check.

What happened is that the front top edge of the window went the wrong side of the outer lip on the short vertical part of the runner, and then jammed. I managed to maneuver it back by putting the window down a bit, pulling the back edge into its runner, and then using a paint-scraper to guide the front into the right part of the vertical runner - really need three hands to do this!

Anyone know why it would do this? And what I can do to stop it happening again? I've fought shy of putting the window down because I don't want to make things worse before I find out how to fix it.

I promised photos, so here we go... First, how I wedged the window so I could work without worrying about leaving things open (one of these at the front of the window too, of course!):


This is the "good" wheel from the other half of the main track:




And this is the first stage of turning the new one, from Delrin. I've done the main diameter and the angles on each side, and started turning down for the spigot that goes against the arm:


Here's what the finished wheel looks like in place on the arm (not as tidy as I'd like, but I think it is good enough to work!) I used an ordinary nut to check the fit, and found I had to turn the spigot, and especially the transition of it to the main wheel, down a bit more or it tended to bind in the slot of the track:


You'll notice I had to reduce the thickness of the head of the shaft or it bound on the back of the track, and I didn't want to make the inset in the wheel any deeper.
Finally, here it is in place, waiting to be put back into the car, with a Nyloc nut. I wondered if the thread protruded too far and would hit other arms as it operated, but this wasn't a problem:


So that's that - all that work and I'm back where I started, unable to open the window!

If I find out what to do about the front runner problem, I'll have a go at that when the weather improves. Which may be Some Time...

Cheers,
Howard
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 11:10
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...
What happened is that the front top edge of the window went the wrong side of the outer lip on the short vertical part of the runner, and then jammed. I managed to maneuver it back by putting the window down a bit, pulling the back edge into its runner, and then using a paint-scraper to guide the front into the right part of the vertical runner - really need three hands to do this!

Anyone know why it would do this? And what I can do to stop it happening again? I've fought shy of putting the window down because I don't want to make things worse before I find out how to fix it.
...
I would guess that would happen if the runner wheel failed again.

Behaviour is exactly what happend to mine - front top edge of the window went on the wrong side of outer lip. Resolution - change of track wheel - but I put metal one - gave it to guy who did it for pennies.

Point is that when track wheel fails it allow window to gain free play space, and because of that window can jump from the slide channels.

Window motor on R600 is really strong one, and all the parts have to be up to the job - from my experiance.

Last edited by Roverlike; 24-09-2012 at 11:17.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 11:55
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Howard, Ive been experiencing exactly this, remember I said Id had door card off a while? Thats why...

Im baffled too, and frustrated, mine does exactly as you say, comes out the channel under the driver mirror...then rides up behind the channel

A mate says unbolt the channel, remove it and look for any bends....hhmmm .... its too short and with at least 3 bolts I don't see how it can bend, but will investigate it anyway..

Not one issue since I originally bolted my washers on, worked lovely and perfect for ages. Passenger side has never caused any issues since I fixed it, but I guess its the driver side that gets more use.

With my card off I watch it as it goes down and it just falls free of the forward channel...obviously on a tilt downwards so the back edge leans forward from the door frame too

Im wondering if...somehow, my regulator arms are slightly bent. Id hand straightened them originally from being 'very' twisted, and Im wondering if a slight bend can do this... its become a head scratcher for sure coz if the reg isnt kinked, then nothing has changed since it was good.

One tip I did learn though, was once the reg has been removed and re-installed, to not fully tighten the bolts till the windows gone up and down a few times, this is so the reg finds its best position...then tighten fully.

My card has been off for some weeks, Ive had the window out, back in, out, and in etc a few times, every time making damned sure its in the channels tight, but within one or two ups and downs it just slithers out the channel...plus Ive not had much free time or even motivation to strip it fully out, the reg that is, and now we have rain forecast for a few days so that will mean more days with the card off.

I open it about 3 or 4 inches, as Im a smoker, and it will stay good in that distance, if I let it down further though it drops out

One other thing I noted was that once fully down, when its raised it seems to come over the rubbers on the end above door handle, so Im thinking maybe...maybe - where I cant see - is some torn rubber that makes it do that...

problem is I cant see the part where this is happening

So lets keep this page updated till one of us finds the reason?

Cheers for now

edit: Thanks for the pics, you done well !!
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 12:08
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Possible fix?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfgSrBRSNxY

And here is the rubbers issue, and fast forward to 6.26 as first bit is talking and door card removal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nKkD...eature=related


and...replacing the rubbers entirely fast forward to 11.30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1svF...eature=related

Last edited by rov618i; 24-09-2012 at 12:15.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 12:27
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Thanks for all the advice, guys.

I think the biggest problem I have is trying to work out the geometry - because it's complicated and an awful lot of it is hidden! (Can't see down into the front where the glass is jumping tracks, so no idea why it's happening). The scissor-motion should keep the glass level, the static mounting position of the mechanism has an overall effect, but the small track also affects the geometry as the wheel moves along it. I put it back with the bolt-marks matching, but it may need a tweak to get it just right. I wonder at the sort of mind that can make up something like this!

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So lets keep this page updated till one of us finds the reason?
Absolutely! As soon as (if!) I find out what's happening, I'll post it here.

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edit: Thanks for the pics, you done well !!
Well "The operation was a success, but the patient died"! But if the pics help anyone else, it won't have been for nought.

Cheers,
Howard
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 13:35
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Just found this page, quite good with clear diagrams/pics etc

http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1d/bl068d.htm

Its something else to try isnt it?
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 24-09-2012, 21:16
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Howard
Have you seen .. Electric window: replacing the white plastic wheels (MGJ post)
I successfully sorted my Passenger side (however has damaged outside top, and causes wind noise) Nothing beats me usually (I like the effort you have gone into), however I no longer use Drivers.. managed to rebuild a wheel then broke off a plastic glass mounting clip a few weeks later (the glass didn't break). Glued/bolted/bodged that, however the front runner (or rubber insert) must have been damaged/nicked as never ran 100% 'true'. So gave up and removed fuse. Maybe one day I'll revisit. I soon got used to opening the door @ tolls and car park entry ! lol
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