Stu's BRM - Forged 1.8 VVC K-series turbo build - Page 2 - MG-Rover.org Forums
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post #21 of 120 (permalink) Old 23-08-2014, 18:40
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Those are some big numbers to be out by!

Do you mind me asking how much the balancing was? I'll be phoning next week to get my booked in

Can't wait to see the engine built
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post #22 of 120 (permalink) Old 23-08-2014, 18:46 Thread Starter
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Do you mind me asking how much the balancing was?
304 plus vat (plus two return journeys!)
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post #23 of 120 (permalink) Old 22-09-2014, 17:40 Thread Starter
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Bit more progress.

Testing clearances on the big and and main bearings - a good idea with unknown rods and a used crank. Time to get busy with the plastigauge. This stuff is awesome. The strands spread out to a certain width across a given range of clearances. Just compare the width with the chart. Very clever!









All within tolerance. So onto the actual build...

Balanced crank installed with shiny new main bearings.



A few bits ready to go in.



Measuring ring gaps



Rings on pistons and pistons on rods, with shiny new big end bearings.



Westwood ductile iron liners ready to seat with a bead of Hylomar blue.



Liners going in



Liners clamped in with my DIY liner clamps. Probably overkill but I thought I was going to have to turn the crank to get the big ends bolted up, and you're not supposed to turn the crank without the head torqued down.







At this point I got a bit paranoid about piston ring gaps so went back to double check. Wossner provide conflicting information on their ring gaps. When I checked the first time the info I found suggested 0.2mm - 0.35mm. However I then found a guide on their website suggesting around twice that. I went with the latter to be safe. So most of the rings had to come back off the pistons to be gapped!

Filing with a metal file was getting me nowhere. Rings are made of incredibly hard material! 20 minutes on one ring didn't get me anywhere. So I rigged up a tiny dremel grinding wheel in my drill and had it spinning very slowly. Worked a treat!



A time consuming process and you have to be so careful not the scratch the (very expensive) liners putting the rings in for measuring.



So now I can finally getting the pistons and rods in! I expected to have to turn the crank 180 degrees to get 2 and 3 big end caps bolted up, but I had access to all 4 with the crank at TDC, so didn't bother.

First time using a piston ring clamp. It's virtually impossible to keep the rings still whilst clamping up. Hopefully they stayed more or less where they should be!



All in!









That's it for now. Next step is to find a good complete VVC head and have it ported.
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post #24 of 120 (permalink) Old 24-09-2014, 19:03 Thread Starter
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Now that I'm onto sorting the cylinder head, I got to thinking about compression ratio. The piston supplier tells me they lower the compression ratio to about 9:1, but I wanted to measure it for myself. There are other variables involved so having a base reading will help me decide what direction to go on other aspects of the build (headwork, gasket choice).

I'm using a VVC head but all 3 VVC heads in my possession have been skimmed to various degrees. The mpi head from the original k-turbo donor engine has not been skimmed as far as I can tell and is in excellent condition. So for these purposes I used that. Side by side there doesn't appear to be any difference in the combustion chamber. This base reading of an un-skimmed, unmodified head gives me a useful starting point to decide how much needs to come out of the combustion chamber (if any) when it's ported. It also will allow me to calculate the effect a skim has on compression ratio.

The process:

I got a cheap burette (A-Level Chemistry comes screaming back to me) and a 10mm thick acrylic plate off ebay. The idea is that you sit the acrylic plate on the liner (sealed with some grease), then dribble a measured amount of fluid through a hole in it until it reaches the top of the plate. For the fluid I used rubbing alcohol with blue food dye in it. Obviously the cylinder you're measuring has to be at TDC.

Starting with the piston top:













And moving onto the cylinder head:












Results:

Volume above piston (to flush with liner): 16.4cc
Combustion chamber: 30.2cc

We know the piston swept volume is 448.9cc
If we assume a 1mm thick compressed head gasket, the volume of that is 5cc

Note: with this method I have probably not measured the volume above the first compression ring, but below the piston deck. This amount is probably well under 1cc so I'm not too concerned.

Volume at BDC / Volume at TDC = 500.5/51.6 = 9.7

So as it sits now, these figures give a compression ratio of 9.7:1

This exercise has highlighted how dramatic material removal from the combustion chamber from headwork can be. You can reportedly remove up to 6cc from the combustion chamber. Removing this much would reduce CR to 8.8.

What I found interesting was how little relative effect a skim would have. The maximum recommended 0.2mm skim would reduce the combustion chamber by less than 1cc (on my figures increasing CR to 9.9:1). I'm therefore now less concerned about using a skimmed head - as long as it hasn't been overheated and annealed.

Next step is to decide which head to use. None of them are perfect. I only have one set with VVC mechs which are unknown. But there's also the head on my running BRM which I know works. Then there's the brand new ones on ebay for 800...

Decisions, decisions...
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post #25 of 120 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 19:38
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Good work, very impressive
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post #26 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-11-2014, 16:44
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Just found this thread. Some good engineering going on here! Are you working to a timescale, or is the quality the main factor?

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post #27 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-11-2014, 17:07 Thread Starter
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Just found this thread. Some good engineering going on here! Are you working to a timescale, or is the quality the main factor?
Thanks guys. No particular timescale although would like to be ready for POL next year. No rush as I'm just learning as I go.

Been sorting out the steering and suspension recently so will post up about that soon.

Hopefully will have the head done soon so I can get the engine finished and ready to go in by Christmas.
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post #28 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-11-2014, 13:52 Thread Starter
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Engine is slowly coming together. Have a few more bits and bobs including a new oil pump (11.5mm vs the old style 10.5 mm for slightly higher pressure) and a new alloy impeller water pump. While I wait for the real progress to happen (head work), thought I'd share my work on the suspension.

I've decided to initially go for zr struts on x-power springs and a full poly bush on all new suspension and steering moving parts. I've had the steering rack refurbished too. I will be using the stiffer ZR160 rear beam (that also gives me the larger rear brakes) to which I will trial the 18mm "anti roll bar" from my BRM rear beam and 2.5 degree negative camber plates.

Picked up a set of ZR struts and some genuine x-power springs in generally poor condition.





Struts stripped down for a rebuild, ended up replacing the top mounts with new standard units.



Had the X-power springs sand blasted and powder coated orange (obv)



Building the struts back up





taking the old struts, lower arms, tie rods, track rod ends, drop links and ARB off the BRM:



New lower arms - removing the bushes



All ready for poly bushes





Poly bushes installed after a lick of protective paint. I only had orange...



All ready to go on:



And all on. Gave the front cross member a lick of paint too - Found some black paint for that...





I also replaced the steering rack with a recon unit whilst doing this job which is a horrific task. Got it done but no pictures.

Whilst under the car I also installed the short throw (and poly bushed) gear linkage kindly supplied by Rovertechs Pengy. This is a great piece of kit and gives the gear shift a really slick action. It reduces the throw on the BRM from 3rd to 4th from 10.5cm to 7.5cm. That doesn't sound a lot but trust me it really make a difference.

Turning attention to the rear end:

Removal of the rear beam was actually quite simple.





Removing the rubber bushes from the ZR beam to make way for poly. Had to burn them out! Getting the giant poly bushes in was surprisingly difficult. Had to fashion a tool out of threaded bar, nuts and spacers. Shame I didn't get any pictures of this as it took me forever to do!



It turns out that the beam-to-chassis brackets are unique on the BRM. You'll see in the image below that the BRM bracket (on the right) has a small piece welded into it. Apparently this was to reduce lateral movement of the rear end to give more precise feel. It would have seriously hampered installation of poly bushes which only come designed for the standard bubble brackets so I had to source a set of non-BRM brackets.



New beam in complete with (ahem) orange ARB I extracted at great effort from the BRM beam. The ZR beam is apparently stiffer so the ARB (which is not really an ARB in the classic sense - it just adds stiffness) is not needed. However it still has the bracketry for one so I thought I'd give it a go. This might make it a bit flighty on the road so if it's too much I'll take it off. It'll be a shame though as I had to perform grinder cutting surgery to get it off without damaging it. the 4" or so spacers you can see at each mounting end are new stainless spacers I had to fabricate as one of the old spacers had to be hacked to bits to get it off (it had basically welded to the bar with corrosion).





Also installed some negative camber plates supplied by cableguy off of Rovertech. I was originally going to go for 1.5 degrees as this will be a road car. However I got talked into 2.5 degrees. Will see how they feel on the road. If too much then I'll swap for 1.5 degrees later.









And how she currently sits on this setup. a Little high on the rear still. That might just be the uneven driveway. Suspect I may end up going with coilevers but will let it sit like this for the time being. You'll notice the bonnet vents. That's a tale for another day...

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post #29 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-11-2014, 18:52
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Wow, that looks really neat. You've got great attention to detail (e.g. all those orange bits under the car). How does she drive with all tat suspension work?

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post #30 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-11-2014, 19:03 Thread Starter
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Thanks mate. Not had a chance to test it yet as sorn'd and not insured. Probably won't test properly until the turbo engine is in it now.
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post #31 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-11-2014, 22:01
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Wow some hard work has gone into this, well done. The orange suspension bits brought back memories I had a 216 and basically painted the same as you but in silver. Looks really good when completed.

thanks
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post #32 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-11-2014, 10:14
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Amazing work mate, looking forward to the next update.
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post #33 of 120 (permalink) Old 14-11-2014, 21:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuballs View Post
Bit more progress.

Testing clearances on the big and and main bearings - a good idea with unknown rods and a used crank. Time to get busy with the plastigauge. This stuff is awesome. The strands spread out to a certain width across a given range of clearances. Just compare the width with the chart. Very clever!









All within tolerance. So onto the actual build
I'm not sure what you are doing here and how the gauge works, despite your efforts to explain it

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post #34 of 120 (permalink) Old 14-11-2014, 21:50 Thread Starter
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You lay a stick of the plastigauge on the bit where you want to measure clearance. Then you bolt it all down and torque up as though it's a final assembly. Then you take it all apart again. The plastigauge will have crushed and the width is a known constant for any given clearance. Just compare it against the chart supplied as in the picture.

It's important to do this because main and big end bearing clearance must be within a certain range. Rover's tolerances were so all over the place you have to measure this, especially on a used crank where it will probably have changed from wear.
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post #35 of 120 (permalink) Old 15-11-2014, 09:05
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Ah, got it. So that stuff that looks like copper grease, is a crushed stick and the less the clearance the wider it will spread...

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post #36 of 120 (permalink) Old 15-11-2014, 09:33 Thread Starter
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Ah, got it. So that stuff that looks like copper grease, is a crushed stick and the less the clearance the wider it will spread...
That's right.
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post #37 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-12-2014, 18:58
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Almost exactly the same build here Stu going in my classic Mini even down to the Turbo used. The only 2 differences are I am using the maxspeeding -1.5mm rods made to the turbo rod length and Omega fully floating pistons that have been reworked in the dish area to bring them back to standard CR from their original 11.5 - 1 spec. Fitted with the rods and the head work this should bring me nearer 8.5 - 1 CR. It is going to be interesting to see how the 2 compare. Like you I wanted to avoid overlap on the cams and would opt for something around the 270 profile if going solid inlet but I may well "lock" the vvc inlet cams instead if they do not perform well as standard and experiment with that before ultimately going solid cam if it becomes necessary. Good luck with the build mate
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post #38 of 120 (permalink) Old 12-12-2014, 22:20
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"Like you I wanted to avoid overlap on the cams and would opt for something around the 270 profile if going solid inlet but I may well "lock" the vvc inlet cams instead if they do not perform well as standard and experiment with that before ultimately going solid cam if it becomes necessary. Good luck with the build mate !"

Yes , thats my thread ! Good work !

As im in the middle of a turbo conversion Rover 1.8T into my mgf, somewhat similar to Kostas conversion , i read this with the greatest interest.
i have a 160 vvc head lying around, incl. the piper 270 outlet cam.
And id like to use the vvc head instead of the mpi head.

Ian, would you be so kind and explain how to lock the vvc inlet cams ?

Ive been a long time lurker here and now im going into active mode, cause nobody in germany can give any valid informations.

Youre the guys to ask !

Thanks !
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post #39 of 120 (permalink) Old 19-12-2014, 17:50
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Almost the same build, too. Finished summer 2014.
Difference is that I combined the JDM pistons with a 1mm copper shim from Ferriday engineering and a MLS gasket. The head is a VVC160 head, solid Newman ph2 cams, mildly ported and chambers enlarged by Roger Fabry, (Sabreheads)
This ends up somewhere around 8.5:1.
The shim protects the head from indentation shall it turn soft. Most (all) VVC160 heads tend to suffer from this to a degree, especially near the exhaust valves.
I have used a 1.6mm shim in the previous build with higher CR pistons. The copper gets indented by the MLS, but it seals really well. It survived heavy knock, misfires and other abuse.
The top surface is sealed with Hylomar blue against the head.
I see 0.85bar of boost at 7300rpm from a Rotrex c30-94 supercharger.

some pics:
http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.p...=393893&page=1


Marko

Last edited by rotrex elise; 20-12-2014 at 19:19.
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post #40 of 120 (permalink) Old 20-12-2014, 16:50 Thread Starter
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Some interesting builds coming out of the woodwork! Do you guys have links to build threads?

Ian presumably you'll run emerald in which case I believe the VVC can essentially be turned off.

Slow progress for me at the moment. My head is almost ready though. Porting is complete now just needs a light skim before being rebuilt. I've got most bits I need to get the engine back together. And hopefully santa will bring me some bits I need for the install.
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