General How To.... Diagnose a K Series Head Gasket Failure

[wallsjim]

Hi i have a r reg rover 200 1.4 16v and on monday went to check the coolant level and have discovered a slight oily sluge in the header tank not enough to coat the sides but just a film. There is no mayo on the filler cap or in the oil the car did not overheat no loss of power and still had coolant(just below the min level). The head gasket was done about four years ago and have always checked the coolant and oil regularly and make sure the temp is up before any long motorway trips. So could it be HGF again (i hope not) or just some crud from the coolant system coming back to the header tank?
Thanks
Jim

[MGJohn]

Originally Posted by wallsjim

Hi i have a r reg rover 200 1.4 16v and on monday went to check the coolant level and have discovered a slight oily sluge in the header tank not enough to coat the sides but just a film. There is no mayo on the filler cap or in the oil the car did not overheat no loss of power and still had coolant(just below the min level). The head gasket was done about four years ago and have always checked the coolant and oil regularly and make sure the temp is up before any long motorway trips. So could it be HGF again (i hope not) or just some crud from the coolant system coming back to the header tank?
Thanks
Jim

Never fear the worst until you've no alternative. Keep the coolant level up to the max level (when cold as coolant expands when hot* giving false readings ) and watch the level every time you use the car. If the level goes down over a period, then that will need to be investigated.

A smear or film of oil on the surface of the coolant in the expansion bottle could simply be a little left over from the previous gasket replacement making its way there.

Keep those regular checks up until you're confident all is well or, needs further investigation.

* Be careful checking coolant when the engine is hot. The cooling system is highly pressurised when hot and careless removal of the coolant bottle cap risks scalding as coolant is forced at great pressure past the loosened cap.

Even when the coolant is correctly at the MAX level when stone cold, when hot the coolant can show well above that MAX level simply because hot coolant expands and it is that expansion which builds up the pressure in the sealed cooling system. That is normal and a sign of a healthy engine. If that seal is broken, say by a worn rubber hose or even a leaky cylinder head gasket, the cooling system will never reach essential operating pressure so will boil over prematurely. Coolant "boils" at a much higher temperature under pressure in a healthy engine. Of course it does not boil in a healthy engine even though super heated under pressure as it does not reach the higher boiling point.

[wallsjim]

Cheers MGjohn will keep a good look at the coolant levels and cross my fingers lol. Do you think it mite a good idea to give the whole coolant system a flush or leave as is?
Cheers
jim

[MGJohn]

Originally Posted by wallsjim

Cheers MGjohn will keep a good look at the coolant levels and cross my fingers lol. Do you think it mite a good idea to give the whole coolant system a flush or leave as is?
Cheers
jim

Leave as is for the time being in case you have to do it anyway later.

Have a look at a thread I set up when a family friend's R25 had a 'repeat' so called HGF soon after she had paid for an expensive pro-repair!

http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthrea...Helping+friend

Car is in regular daily use by her daughter since and guess what, they keep an eye on the coolant expansion bottle levels.

There's a lot more to replacing a cylinder head gasket [ in any car ] than simply fitting a new one!

...

[Edgard]

WTF??
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=f6YF...eature=related

[coalman]

Holy s*** DON'T BUY A CAR OFF THAT GUY.

Or perhaps he has cam belt change in a can?

[jrw1969]

Originally Posted by skrib

where on the engine would u be able to see this leaking?

Hang over the engine and look down between the ports of the inlet manifold point a torch at the back of the block and you will see coolant dribbling from under the manifold if it is an exterior leak.
If it is leaking internally you can tell usually by whipping the spark plugs out and comparing the electrode colours.
usually with a leak blowing coolant into the chambers numbers 1 and or 4 will be brown showing staining from burnt coolant.

As 1955 says it is well worth the cost of a gasket (less than £10) to change it out and know for sure due to a cured or not cured problem before taking the much larger cost of the HG.

[1955diesel]

There is now a new inlet manifold gasket available made from neoprene (I think). It is twice the price, but might be worth a shot - http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-...ampaign=101130

Edit: Material is Viton apparently.

[Blueser]

And from this link can be learned.

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2..._pages/HGF.htm

[rover_all_over]

Well i think 1955 diesel has once again save the day you lot need to respect the guru good 1 diesel

[smokey sean]

yeah ha im gunna jump on band wagon ... here goes cold air hot air cold air hot air boiled up but not over heating ?? me old man a mechanic for over 30 years hgf hgf hgf .... i said no cant be low am be hold i takes themostat out which is a easy job (with correct tools!! ) take note peeps my stat was stuck shut.. never take to a garage investigate urself for a wee while it will pay off.. good nite god bless

[Eire MG]

Hey lads .. and ladies .. have my baby, my black MG ZR 105 a whole of a year now .. she's been an absolute warrior so far, love the car. Fan belt has gone and one or two fuses, otherwise grand .. until now ..car stopped dead on a roundabout .. filled water less than 10 days ago and today was empty when i popped bonnet after car stopped. checked for leaks of coolant. a bit came from side of block on engine .. possible HGF ( dun dunn dunnnn ) .. coolant looks very tidy no mayo ! oil light came on, put in half a litre immediately, but, having taken sparks from block they're completely drowned in oil ! can someone confirm HGF ? im pretty sure it is but im no mechanic, also YES i definitely put the oil in the right place any help is greatly appreciated !

p.s. never learned as much as i have from this thread

[Eire MG]

Today i got news from my engineer, that after skimming and pressure testing, my heads well and truly f***ed .. and so goes my engine to the MG Graveyard along with all the other Little Heroes ! .. But i love my 105 zr so much im getting a job done on her, new 1600 engine to replace the 1400 ..

so there ya have it guys no major symptoms from my car until we looked for the cause of the problem, hgf is a major enemy of MG's !

[1955diesel]

Something very odd going on there. Oil in the plug recesses comes from the carrier to head joint or the cam cover gasket. It is nothing to do with the head gasket and they are not close to any high pressure oil so even a crack would be very unlikely to cause it. Not that anyone has ever had a crack in this area to my knowledge.

[julieh]

sorry to sound so stupid,ive read all this post on hgf and the inlet manifol but im still having problems understanding, my car today is doing the same as the pic, brown stuff collecting in the coolant,it had run dry so my temp went up slightly, i filled it back up temp went normal again,but ive just checked 4 hours after topping up and all the waters gone again ive not even drove it its just been sat there, no leaks, its had a brand new raidiator fitted at christmas as the same thing was happening with the coolant, its been fine till the last few days ,im tempted to take it to the garage to get the inlet manifold checked,i cant see it being hgf as ive had another car do that and im not getting the same symtoms, is this something worth me trying to fix at home if so do i need any special tools for this,its a rover 25 s impressions 1.4i,does anyone have a link for the job ta very much and again sorry for asking the same thing but its all a bit confusing to me,wont be me fixing it will be my partner lol

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by julieh

sorry to sound so stupid,ive read all this post on hgf and the inlet manifol but im still having problems understanding, my car today is doing the same as the pic, brown stuff collecting in the coolant,it had run dry so my temp went up slightly, i filled it back up temp went normal again,but ive just checked 4 hours after topping up and all the waters gone again ive not even drove it its just been sat there, no leaks, its had a brand new raidiator fitted at christmas as the same thing was happening with the coolant, its been fine till the last few days ,im tempted to take it to the garage to get the inlet manifold checked,i cant see it being hgf as ive had another car do that and im not getting the same symtoms, is this something worth me trying to fix at home if so do i need any special tools for this,its a rover 25 s impressions 1.4i,does anyone have a link for the job ta very much and again sorry for asking the same thing but its all a bit confusing to me,wont be me fixing it will be my partner lol

http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=213626
The thread above is a step to step guide of how to change the Inlet Manifold Gasket.

[1955diesel]

Oily mayo in the coolant is nearly always a sign of head gasket failure. All engines react differently and suffer different types of failure so don't expect the same symptoms as you may have seen before. That is the reason for this thread - to show how the K series can be affected.

The inlet manifold gasket will cause coolant loss, but not the oil contamination.

Coolant should always look fresh and bright and antifreeze coloured. If it is not, then something is wrong or at the minimum the system needs cleaning out and refilling.

[nixipie]

Hi guys,

Had my 45 1.4 for 6yrs, been serviced regularly, never no problems.
Until my heater stopped over 6mths ago but only works on 3&4, warmer weather had come, so thought nothing of it and would sort later date.
But then in convo bloke in a pub told me that my manifold could be on the blink. (I am not a mechanic, know of some bits but this went over my head). I know it drinks oil and mine likes water too, unsure if this is connected. Then few weeks back needed MOT, pre service, asked them to check it out after couple hundred quit - Nothing.
Then few days ago, while few hundred miles away from home, started car and it took sometime in first to get some speed and felt blowing sound under my seat. I thought, exhaust (but that is 6mths old).
Then engine really started to rattle, engine light came on. Called RAC, hooked upto computer, he told me I was loosing water/coolant (but no over heating, no mayo) and that combustion into header tank split and failure head gasket.
Next day on starting it, white smoke/steam came out, never did this before and the temp gage just went above the half normal. It has never over heated.

One Garage, then told me it all needs replacing and this also effects my catalyst converter and will cost 2.5k. And better off buying a new car.
Another has told me new HG and should have a copper one total 1100 and another said Engine ran its course??
Another has said it could just be water/coolant tank need changing? or put some K-SEAL in it???

2002 reg, 89,600miles

Really dont know who to believe, who to go with as dont really want to be ripped off, it was like as soon as I said Rover and what RAC had said they were rubbing their hands together.

I love my car and until this has been a dream.

What should be the pricing be, yorkshire area.

Much appreciated.

[nixipie]

Also can anyone recommend parts for Rover 45, apart from Rimmer bros?

The lid on my power steering resevoir is very loose.

As with above, Ive just had a garage ask me if I put tap water into my coolant resevoir, I dont, I use iodonised water, does that make any differance???

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

Hi guys,

Had my 45 1.4 for 6yrs, been serviced regularly, never no problems.
Until my heater stopped over 6mths ago but only works on 3&4, warmer weather had come, so thought nothing of it and would sort later date.
But then in convo bloke in a pub told me that my manifold could be on the blink. (I am not a mechanic, know of some bits but this went over my head). I know it drinks oil and mine likes water too, unsure if this is connected. Then few weeks back needed MOT, pre service, asked them to check it out after couple hundred quit - Nothing.
Then few days ago, while few hundred miles away from home, started car and it took sometime in first to get some speed and felt blowing sound under my seat. I thought, exhaust (but that is 6mths old).
Then engine really started to rattle, engine light came on. Called RAC, hooked upto computer, he told me I was loosing water/coolant (but no over heating, no mayo) and that combustion into header tank split and failure head gasket.
Next day on starting it, white smoke/steam came out, never did this before and the temp gage just went above the half normal. It has never over heated.

One Garage, then told me it all needs replacing and this also effects my catalyst converter and will cost 2.5k. And better off buying a new car.
Another has told me new HG and should have a copper one total 1100 and another said Engine ran its course??
Another has said it could just be water/coolant tank need changing? or put some K-SEAL in it???

2002 reg, 89,600miles

Really dont know who to believe, who to go with as dont really want to be ripped off, it was like as soon as I said Rover and what RAC had said they were rubbing their hands together.

I love my car and until this has been a dream.

What should be the pricing be, yorkshire area.

Much appreciated.

The heater issue not working on 1 and 2 is just the resistor. Cheap to fix! Less than £10 for a second hand one from a scrap yard, or even ebay!

As for the head gasket, a quote for 2.5k including a new cat... is a diabolical quote, i think they've quoted that to put you off because they don't want the job!!!!
Do not put K-seal in it... (it rarely fixes the leak anyway unless it's small) It's a pain in the bum to flush out and can cause blockages in your cooling system.
A standard hg replacement can be done by a mobile mechanic from between £300 and £500 depending on who/where you go to.
A garage usually charges anything from £500 upwards...
If your car usually drinks water and oil, you definitely have a problem and shouldn't really have just left it to get worse. You could now be looking at a head gasket failure because of something simple like an inlet manifold gasket leak that's got worse and caused the head gasket to go. (white smoke/steam from exhaust is a sign of head gasket failure, along with the coolant loss, as is the temperature gauge rising above half even if it doesn't severely overheat) The oil leak could be something as simple as the rocker cover gasket or cam oil seals (either are also cheap to fix).

Sounds to me like your car needs a bit of TLC to sort it out, then looking after and it will look after you x