General How To.... Diagnose a K Series Head Gasket Failure

[nixipie]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

As far as my car knowledge, I have an oil change every 6mths. and at 12mth a full one.
I cover around 600miles a month, topping up oil. water around 600ml everytime.
In past had no problems with garage I was going to, thought they were trustworthy hence, they told me these cars, drink alot of oil and water. And isnt the first time ive been told this. And norm for what I was doing.

Why I bring it to the garage, as ive no idea where and how to put coolant in? they do it all for me.
Maybe should of learned, but I am not mechanic minded, why I bring it to the garage.

Water resevoir, been clean, but that day RAC were called out it was very scaley like.

So does what is a COPPER head gasket? as 2 garages have told me this, so far got 1 of the garages who will do water pump/timing belt to 950.
They say it's the labour cost's that's why prices so high.
But I have no Idea, what else they are supposed to do when changing head gasket. I just want to be aware so in conversation they dont think they'l see opportunity to make money out of me.

Which unfortantley there are too many of them and not enought good mechanics.

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

Hi, thanks for your reply.

As far as my car knowledge, I have an oil change every 6mths. and at 12mth a full one.
I cover around 600miles a month, topping up oil. water around 600ml everytime.
In past had no problems with garage I was going to, thought they were trustworthy hence, they told me these cars, drink alot of oil and water. And isnt the first time ive been told this. And norm for what I was doing.

Water resevoir, been clean, but that day RAC were called out it was very scaley like.

So does what is a COPPER head gasket? as 2 garages have told me this, so far got 1 of the garages who will do water pump/timing belt to 950.
They say it's the labour cost's that's why prices so high.
But I have no Idea, what else they are supposed to do when changing head gasket. I just want to be aware so in conversation they dont think they'l see opportunity to make money out of me.

Which unfortantley there are too many of them and not enought good mechanics.

Forgive me for saying this.. but you're being taken for a mug.
Firstly "these cars" do not use loads of oil and water unless there is something not right mechanical wise with the engine/cooling system.
Expansion tank (water tank) scaley i'm guessing the scaley bit you're referring to would be oil speckles? Or a thin layer of oil resting on the top of the water/coolant. (That is yet another common sign of head gasket failure)

Copper head gasket? they should be advising the use of a Metal Laminate gasket with shim (Metal laminate multi layer gasket)!
My husband is an mg/rover specialist and charges £295 for a head gasket replacement including the following brand new parts:

Metal Laminate Gasket
Waterpump
Cambelt
Inlet manifold Gasket
Exhaust manifold Gasket
Oil
Oil filter
Antifreeze
Cam oil seals if they are in need of replacing
Head Bolts if they are in need of replacing.

The Metal laminate gasket, cambelt and waterpump should be done when doing a head gasket replacement AT LEAST.

[nixipie]

That means for 6 years ive had the car, with regards to oil & water top ups the garage I used failed to see there was a problem?

Note the brownish stuff on sides of water tank only showed up last week.
Your price,
That's very cheap? where's your husband based?

Parts ive seen on Rimmer Bros comes around the 200+. Garage labour charges vary from £40 to £65 per hour. Regards to mobiles unfortunatly where I live (quayside) communal ground forbids vehicle repairs apart from breakdown/recovery, so mobile is not an option.

But with what you have said with regards to parts, I have just had contact from a garage and I stated those parts which he agreed and said spark plugs also be checked and lowest quote ive had of £600.

As for copper gasket, kid across road who had his STREETWISE fixed and is also a TF owner maintained at the garage he recommended insisted on the Copper Gasket?

But thank you for your reply, as for being mugged off, would this be from the garage ive been using as they are supposed to be professionals from a very well known garage, I trusted their judgement and expertise in car maintenance and mechanics.
Im not any of those and do not have time to be.
I suppose it's trial and error and you live and learn.

Once again thanks for the info.

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

That means for 6 years ive had the car, with regards to oil & water top ups the garage I used failed to see there was a problem?

Note the brownish stuff on sides of water tank only showed up last week.
Your price,
That's very cheap? where's your husband based?

Parts ive seen on Rimmer Bros comes around the 200+. Garage labour charges vary from £40 to £65 per hour. Regards to mobiles unfortunatly where I live (quayside) communal ground forbids vehicle repairs apart from breakdown/recovery, so mobile is not an option.

But with what you have said with regards to parts, I have just had contact from a garage and I stated those parts which he agreed and said spark plugs also be checked and lowest quote ive had of £600.

As for copper gasket, kid across road who had his STREETWISE fixed and is also a TF owner maintained at the garage he recommended insisted on the Copper Gasket?

But thank you for your reply, as for being mugged off, would this be from the garage ive been using as they are supposed to be professionals from a very well known garage, I trusted their judgement and expertise in car maintenance and mechanics.
Im not any of those and do not have time to be.
I suppose it's trial and error and you live and learn.

Once again thanks for the info.

Yep. About that.
My husband is based in Derby and has his own premises there.
I'm not going to comment in relation to your usual garage, i'm not here to slag them off, all i'm saying is the price you've been quoted of 2.5k is disgusting and they are taking you for a mug.
£600 sounds alot better to me from wherever gave you that quote!

[nixipie]

Kayleigh,

Yeah, dont worry the 2.5k. was a no no from start. Just shocked how many garages had differant info and brain was starting to feel HGF overload.

But taken your advice and the garage doing work has said they only use Multi Layer Steel gaskets kits, land rover.

Just hope when they collect tomorrow it is that straight forward.

But if I ever breakdown in Derby, I know where to go.

Thanks again Kayleigh for the mechanics lesson.

really appreciated.

[**Kayleigh**]

you're very welcome x

[MGJohn]

For the benefit of anyone reading this thread with cylinder head gasket issues, here's a tip for you.

Whenever replacing the cylinder head gasket on these K-Series cars, ALWAYS renew the water pump at the same time even if the pump looks fine and no cause for concern at the moment.

In my limited experience of renewing Cylinder Head Gaskets on these K-Series engines, in several cases the cause of the so called failure was identified as simply a worn water pump. When these pumps wear they allow coolant to escape. If this is not spotted in time by the car user the steady coolant loss will reach a critical level and then the engine overheats through lack of coolant. No coolant leads to excessive heat and that excess soon damages the metal parts of the engine and then the first to go is usually the gasket.

Good water pumps can be about £20-£25 off ebay delivered.
..

[nixipie]

When I spoke to Mechanic at Garage, he did say, they will change water pump, all part of service along with timing belt and new expansion resevoir and a full service and the MLS gasket.

So fingers x, all's well.

I have no idea why the other garage had told me I needed a Copper gasket? maybe I should of asked for gold.

Thanks for your knowledge guys, I now know where to come

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by MGJohn

For the benefit of anyone reading this thread with cylinder head gasket issues, here's a tip for you.

Whenever replacing the cylinder head gasket on these K-Series cars, ALWAYS renew the water pump at the same time even if the pump looks fine and no cause for concern at the moment.

In my limited experience of renewing Cylinder Head Gaskets on these K-Series engines, in several cases the cause of the so called failure was identified as simply a worn water pump. When these pumps wear they allow coolant to escape. If this is not spotted in time by the car user the steady coolant loss will reach a critical level and then the engine overheats through lack of coolant. No coolant leads to excessive heat and that excess soon damages the metal parts of the engine and then the first to go is usually the gasket.

Good water pumps can be about £20-£25 off ebay delivered.
..

+1 me and Dave wouldn't do a head gasket replacement without changing the waterpump and cambelt.
We also recommend the above advice by John 100% - definitely a tip worth knowing and sticking by.

[Rally Matt]

I would also always replace the head bolts, they are stretch bolts that need to be replaced despite what people claim (even Rover) the bolt manufacturers even warned Rover about the practice of re-using them!

The sump should be removed too as it will always retain approx .5 ltr of contaminated oil, that will wreck bearings as the residual coolant works its way about the engine creating exploding hot spots. Hence reson for so many oil related failures following a basic gasket swap.

The oil ladder should also be replaced for the revised version to give better engine rigidity and reduce head shuffle.

Liner heights are the critical part though. We use very precise measuring equipment to calculate the protrusion and consistancy rates. The consistancy dictates what gasket can be used. We have now used a combination of both oversize liners manufactered for us and shims to increase the protrusion height to safe levels. A very good way of saving a previously U/S engine.

Our very comprehensive HG fix and re-engineer starts from £850 inc VAT with a 3 year/50,000 mile warranty. many new parts and virually every gasket and seal in the engine replaced.

I can't see what extra £2,500 would get you!

On the Cat issue, yes any major engine fault can affect the cat but so far I have never had a HGF that has killed it, we now have a treatement that can neutralise any ill effects and restore performance of the cat folloing oil/coolant contamination, its £14 and very very effective and much less than replacing the cat too! O/E cat is pretty hardwearing but after market cheap replacements are pretty rubbish. Like everything inlife you get what you pay for!

[nixipie]

Garage have told me I need a radiator, how much should this cost?
Gasket wasn't that bad they said but radiator damaged, why was loosing coolant.

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

Garage have told me I need a radiator, how much should this cost?
Gasket wasn't that bad they said but radiator damaged, why was loosing coolant.

a new alloy radiator is around £45-50 maximum... fitting i'd say an hours labour maximum. So anywhere between £60-80 supplied and fitted while they're doing the head gasket replacement.

[nixipie]

Garage have quoted me £170. Stating an alloy rad would cost 100 !
Tried looking up net but no luck and they will not fit one bought off ebay

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

Garage have quoted me £170. Stating an alloy rad would cost 100 !
Tried looking up net but no luck and they will not fit one bought off ebay

Bloody hell. The rad's are not £100 & £70 for fitting it is a rip off, especially when they're doing the hg at the same time. I can get you a one new from our radiator supplier, an alloy one, and post it to you for less than £70, for them to just fit if they would be happy to fit one supplied by yourself from a proper radiator supplier. x

[nixipie]

I'm off their now as they stated a courtesy car but I'm still waiting. So I'll be intouch kayleigh if I can't get em to lower their price.

Your a star.

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

I'm off their now as they stated a courtesy car but I'm still waiting. So I'll be intouch kayleigh if I can't get em to lower their price.

Your a star.

any luck? x

[nixipie]

Got handed a lovely bill of £890 !! Wish I could turrn the clock back now. Need to verify that these prices are right or taken the right berty!

Radiator. £60
Water pump. £28.27
Cam box gask £12.70
Timing belt kit £45.00
Sparks X4. £24.00
Oil filter. £4.50
Head gask kit £76.57. Land rover/ford
Head bolts. £35.70
Pressure test/skim cyl head. £100
Coolant. £12.75. X3 tot
Engine flush £9.95


Oil. £22.28

Labour. 330.00

They told me 560. Plus rad wanted xtra 170. Where they get off with then handing me a bill without any contact to myself on how much this was totaling!

Absolutely gutted, I only paid 700 they want money next week, got car
But feel like been mugged off again!

Pah!

[**Kayleigh**]

Originally Posted by nixipie

Got handed a lovely bill of £890 !! Wish I could turrn the clock back now

OMG!!!! you are not serious???????

[nixipie]

Yes, serious. Haha absolutely gutted and gob smacked, angry...

But ce la vie :o
Btw. On bill head bolts. Qty 1. 35.70. Is that right?

[nixipie]

Originally Posted by **Kayleigh**

OMG!!!! you are not serious???????

Off to dispute it, they said they fixed heater 1&2 - not working.
When I left they said keep an eye on temp incase of airlocks?
Temp always been just before halfway and only went 3qtrs when engine
Light came on with problem. Now, its a little above halfway?

And do I have to go back at some point to have bolts tightened?
No mention, but I thought ya did?

I'm not sure what's what now.