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Old 05-02-2009, 09:48   #1
blackadder
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Thumbs up diesel Injector Pump pressure regulator

I've seen lots of threads recomending checking the HP pump regulator and inlet filter, but they never say how.
I need to do this task next in my search for an idling problem fix.

Has anyone done it / know how to do it / know what to look for etc and like to share it with me? Pictures would be great.
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Old 05-02-2009, 16:44   #2
tony_fry
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If you manage to find anything out about testing, please could you let me know (once I get mine running again)
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:45   #3
blackadder
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Sure tony, and vice verca of course.

Lots of chaps on here are quick to recommend inspecting the regulator but without saying what to inspect for and how to fix what you find .

Do I just risk replacing it? More on trial and error?

Surely there must be someone with that nugget of gold who's actually done it or knows how?

Anyone?
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:20   #4
robdrinkwater
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Hi pressure pump regulation is controlled by a solenoid in the back of the pump. The ECU senses the fuel rail pressure, by means of the fuel rail pressure sensor, the ECU then sends a pulse width modulated signal to the fuel pressure regualtion solenoid. This then allows the ECU to keep the fuel rail pressure between it's upper & lower limits.

The fuel pressure upper & lower limits are determined by the ECU, dependent on many factors, i.e. pedal demand, engine revs, etc.

It is not very easy to test the fuel pressure regulator in it's own right, but the use of actual values on a decent scan tool will at least give you two important pieces of live data, these being ACTUAL FUEL RAIL PRESSURE & NOMINAL FUEL RAIL PRESSURE.

From these two it can be seen whether the ECU is able to regulate the pressure dependent upon demand.

If it needs further investigation, then a test kit would be required to test the regulated & unregulated output of the HP pump.

You would really need to get the car to a diesel specialist if these tests need doing.

HTH, regards, Rob.

P.S. you need to take a bit of care, don't crack the HP system down for some while after running, the HP side can run in excess of 2000BAR, which is around 29,000PSI in old money, so can do you some damage.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:54   #5
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by robdrinkwater View Post
Hi pressure pump regulation is controlled by a solenoid in the back of the pump. The ECU senses the fuel rail pressure, by means of the fuel rail pressure sensor, the ECU then sends a pulse width modulated signal to the fuel pressure regualtion solenoid. This then allows the ECU to keep the fuel rail pressure between it's upper & lower limits.

The fuel pressure upper & lower limits are determined by the ECU, dependent on many factors, i.e. pedal demand, engine revs, etc.

It is not very easy to test the fuel pressure regulator in it's own right, but the use of actual values on a decent scan tool will at least give you two important pieces of live data, these being ACTUAL FUEL RAIL PRESSURE & NOMINAL FUEL RAIL PRESSURE.

From these two it can be seen whether the ECU is able to regulate the pressure dependent upon demand.

If it needs further investigation, then a test kit would be required to test the regulated & unregulated output of the HP pump.

You would really need to get the car to a diesel specialist if these tests need doing.

HTH, regards, Rob.

P.S. you need to take a bit of care, don't crack the HP system down for some while after running, the HP side can run in excess of 2000BAR, which is around 29,000PSI in old money, so can do you some damage.
The damage being to inject diesel straight through your skin and into your body and human beings don't run too well on diesel. Be very very careful !!!!
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:52   #6
blackadder
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Dont worry my friends the danger of high pressure fluids is old hat to an Engineer like me.

I always crack one of the injector pipe nuts to get rid of residual pressure before commencing work. (like changing the injectors in January !!)

Rob, I'll remove the regulator anyway tomorrow and use my experience to look for scoring, wear and seal problems.
Beyond that, as you say, its time to get professional help from diesel specialists.

Colvert, I've been swallowing diesel for years with no problems, others use castor oil to keep regular !!

Let you all know if I find anything obvious.
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Old 06-02-2009, 13:31   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackadder View Post
Don't worry my friends the danger of high pressure fluids is old hat to an Engineer like me.

I always crack one of the injector pipe nuts to get rid of residual pressure before commencing work. (like changing the injectors in January !!)

Rob, I'll remove the regulator anyway tomorrow and use my experience to look for scoring, wear and seal problems.
Beyond that, as you say, its time to get professional help from diesel specialists.

Colvert, I've been swallowing diesel for years with no problems, others use castor oil to keep regular !!

Let you all know if I find anything obvious.

Whatever you do, DO NOT crack off a common rail injector. With the pressures up to four times higher than a radial/in-line pump system, you WILL hurt yourself.

As regards drinking it, it's probably better that way than having the diesel blasted through you skin, into your blood stream & dying of septicemia.

Regards, Rob.
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Old 06-02-2009, 15:45   #8
blackadder
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Angry

Rob,
Thanks you are spot on. It is important to make members aware of the risks.

HP fluid leaks are invisible and thats the true danger of the beast.
Most fluid penetration wounds occur when people put their flesh close to the point of HP leak unaware that it is there.
Ie 'feeling for leaks' - absolute NO-NO!

I use great care and the longest open ended spanner I have and leather gauntlets to crack an injector nut.
Any residual pressure, and with it the danger, is gone in an instant under my control.

Never work on pressurized injection systems. Complete NO-NO.

Let you all know what I find after the weekend.
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Old 08-02-2009, 18:10   #9
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Just remove the regulator and replace the seal. Its 5 from

http://lynxdiesels.com

It is this that causes most of the regulator related issues.

If this doesn't do any good and you have eliminated injector(S) then a new one is 100.

Certainly replace the regulator before the whole pump or even the ecu.

Ron
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:39   #10
blackadder
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Thanks Ron,

Job was easy, found some jelly-like crud on the shaft behind the seal and cleaned it off with a rag. Seals looked OK. Probably best to get new ones from Alan at Lynx as you suggest or even fit a new one..

Couldnt see the fabled inlet filter, the inlet port is the other side of the pump.
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Old 10-02-2009, 14:06   #11
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Originally Posted by blackadder View Post
Thanks Ron,

Job was easy, found some jelly-like crud on the shaft behind the seal and cleaned it off with a rag. Seals looked OK. Probably best to get new ones from Alan at Lynx as you suggest or even fit a new one..

Couldnt see the fabled inlet filter, the inlet port is the other side of the pump.
Few can find the elusive filter but a Bosch cr pump diagram shows one but not exactly where it is and how to get it out (typical).

Ron
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Old 23-02-2009, 07:39   #12
blackadder
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Originally Posted by Rover_ron View Post
Just remove the regulator and replace the seal. Its 5 from http://lynxdiesels.com
It is this that causes most of the regulator related issues.
If this doesn't do any good and you have eliminated injector(S) then a new one is 100.
Certainly replace the regulator before the whole pump or even the ecu.

Ron
Ron, did just that TA.
Lumpy idle remains, nothing on testbook.

If I disconnect the fuel rail pressure sensor the tickover becomes perfect.
Plug it back in and it is lumpy again. No lights on dash.
May not be the regulator.

I guess if anyone knows this part of the engine control system it would be 'Rover Ron'.
What would you do next, please?
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Old 23-02-2009, 07:43   #13
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Originally Posted by blackadder View Post
Ron, did just that TA.
Lumpy idle remains, nothing on testbook.

If I disconnect the fuel rail pressure sensor the tickover becomes perfect.
Plug it back in and it is lumpy again. No lights on dash.
May not be the regulator.

I guess if anyone knows this part of the engine control system it would be 'Rover Ron'.
What would you do next, please?
Remove the sensor and clean it and its contacts.

Ron
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Old 23-02-2009, 07:59   #14
blackadder
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Originally Posted by Rover_ron View Post
Remove the sensor and clean it and its contacts.

Ron
Done that , Sire. Many thanks
Spotless inside and the tiny hole was clear. Contacts cleaned too.
No effect.

Guess I need to replace the sensor ?
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Old 23-02-2009, 21:15   #15
bogeye
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just a quick note on fuel pressure regulating. at idle the normal current for the regulating solenoid is 0.60 amps. get someone to check it T4 or some other live data reader. if the ecu is having to compensate for something it will be over this, mind it might not be MUCH over. i think above 0.7 is getting suspect if memory serves correct.
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Old 24-02-2009, 13:24   #16
FrenchMike
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you can take a electric mesurement on the sensor,
It is an analog voltage between 0.5 -4.5 volts.

pin 2 black/blue

Hope it helps !

mike
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Old 24-02-2009, 14:34   #17
blackadder
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Originally Posted by FrenchMike View Post
you can take a electric mesurement on the sensor,
It is an analog voltage between 0.5 -4.5 volts.

pin 2 black/blue

Hope it helps !

mike
Thanks, on another thread on fuel pressure regulator Wuzerk gave me the following :
"Rover Ron supplied me with the voltages to check at the fuel pressure sensor plug (must be plugged in) as he was helping me during my' Tortoise'
investigations. Since my car is working ok at the mo' I tried unplugging my fuel rail pressure sensor and it made no difference at all to the tickover which is an indicated 620
revs on my car, but it did make the car more difficult to start. the voltages are: White/Yellow wire=5.0V, Blue/black wire =1.3v at tickover, Brown/green wire = 0V. on my car the 1.3V rose to 2.06V at 3000 revs."

I will be checking it this week and will report back.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:16   #18
blackadder
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Please see my entry on the thread "Diesel misfire at idle" posted on 2 march 2009.

Voltages seem OK-
- but then the ECU would try to obtain its mapped voltage even it had to make the fuel pressure out of spec to achieve this.

Thats how tuning boxes work, by giving the ECU a lower signal than expected to increase fuelling.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:19   #19
blackadder
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And why does this thread have a thumbs up symbol when I am far from resolution?

Where's me edit button ?
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:45   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackadder View Post
And why does this thread have a thumbs up symbol when I am far from resolution?

Where's me edit button ?
Its probably the hp regulator. A new seal set is 5 from lynxdiesels.com though the starter has to come off to remove it from the HP pump.

Or could be a dodgy (dribbling) injector, esp if there's grey smoke or the exhaust smells strongly of diesel.

Too high a maf signal can give same symptoms and mafs can overfuel as well as the more usual underfuelling. The clone mafs are particularly good at this!

Ron
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